4th & Dragon : Dungeons and Dragons...and stuff

Nice stuff but not the sort of playtest I was expecting/hoping for.  I was hoping for a new build.  Oh well!

I am getting a little annoyed with all the different types of feats ... arena feats, combat style feats, and the weapon mastery feats.  It’s a lot of complication for something that is not that complicated.

However, I am very interested to see how feed back affects the final release in a year.

Looks like I might have to go back to books criteria when DMing again.  I had to just make a set of books that were allowed when I ran 3.5 rules edition.  It begins to dissolve the game a little.  Quite honestly it allows players way too much specialization thus weakening their overall role in the game.  Example, my cleric can just rape face on the undead.  15 levels later and still no undead to fight, all you hear is, this build sucks can we fight some undead? 

PHB2 came out, starting a new game.  Everyone went 3.5 mentality (except me) and went 3.5 mentality, because surely the new classes are going to be way more powerful.  Honestly I’d welcome a 5th edition before more specialized books.

As much as you make a character that should fit the adventure world so too should the DM make an adventure world that fits the players.  It isn’t about sending all undead all the time but it is about sending some periodically so they have fun too.

Though in some sense your point does bring to light something I find a but frustrating.  These super specialized feats and stuff will only be taken by min-max munchkins and will be 100% ignored by the majority of people because of the specialization you mentioned.  It it harmful to your success to take a feat or feature you never use.  I don’t have to worry about banning it from my games as I know none of my players will ever take them.  Just like the arena feats.  Though they are pretty cool in concept.

As for 5th edition, as must as I don’t want to by Core all over again, I think I enjoy fixing the editions more then actually playing them.  3e, 3.5, and now 4e, I have a laundry list of changed rules, new rules, and banned rules for each.  I’d welcome the chance to do WotC’s job for them and make a balanced game system, AGAIN.

These super specialized feats and stuff will only be taken by min-max munchkins and will be 100% ignored by the majority of people because of the specialization you mentioned.

That doesn’t match up with my experience at all.  I have a player that will take the Black Hood Style the moment he sees it because he will think it’s cool.  He’s as far from a min-maxer as possible.  Lots of players that aren’t CharOp players love combat styles and such.  It helps them define their characters.

I guess I can see that, it just hasn’t been my experience.

I agree with Taconinja, 4E completely removed the ability to min-max it seems.  I lost two players when we switched to 4E strictly because they couldn’t min/max anymore.  Or as they put it, “They removed all fun from the game.”

Lakoda - I could have gotten into a long post up there.  The basics are I plan a game and a story.  I actually give the players ideas, “You will want a paladin in this adventure, etc.” Some just have it in their heads to play something different.  They can do that.  But, I have a storyline set up and I’m not changing from it to pacify some player who wanted to be different.  They don’t have to play, I have plenty of players to pick from who want in to my games. 

3e, 3.5, and now 4e, I have a laundry list of changed rules, new rules, and banned rules for each.

I’m interested in reading what you banned from 4E.

Almost every level 1 I’ve seen is 18 18 12 11 11 8 builds (except at the game day).  That’s pretty min-max’d if you ask me, and it’s because at least 2, likely 3 of your stats will never matter.  So dump 1 and min 2 more.  That leaves you with 2 maxed and 1 ok, or 1 maxed and 2 good.  In the end your primary stat is always maxed.

So far I have only out right banned Epic Fortitude, Epic Reflexes, Epic Will, Implement Expertise, and Weapon Expertise.  Though I adjusted the math a long time ago on my own.  I have not needed to change much for 4th, but the bulk of what I have done so far pertains to martial power and the wizard.

Please don’t take this as argumentative StMalice, but I think we differ greatly on what the DM’s role should be. Which is OK.  I agree with you and don’t at the same time.  In principle you are right, you should always try to attract the type of players you want.  But where I differ is that even given that, they will move from the story and there are times you need to work against that and time you should role with it.  I have a story and I enjoy the challenge of trying to work the players into it in spite themselves.

PHB2 came out, starting a new game.  Everyone went 3.5 mentality (except me) and went 3.5 mentality, because surely the new classes are going to be way more powerful.  Honestly I’d welcome a 5th edition before more specialized books.

I think at least some of that is due to enthusiasm for the new material.  I’ve got several players who are likewise enthralled with the new material and want to create a new character.  They see potential of the new classes without always seeing the drawbacks and want to jump on the new stuff immediately, claiming it’s more powerful than what they are currently playing.

Personally, as the DM, I see things a bit differently and while the new classes are different, they aren’t necessarily more powerful than what they are currently playing.  As a result, I’m perfectly willing to let the characters change their character without fear of it unbalancing the campaign.  I only impose restrictions as to when they can make the switch for story reasons.

Really, in reflecting about it, I think it’s the difference of the new classes that makes them so appealing to some.  In some cases the new class fits a player’s play style better than what they are currently playing (either because what they wanted didn’t previously exist, or because they were trying something different and decided they didn’t like it).  In others, the new class is simply new and the player has a short attention span when it comes to characters.  In any event I find that so long as the story remains intact, letting players change characters keeps the game fun for everyone.

I agree BP, it’s new and exciting and some people really wanted some of the old classes they had played in the past like the bard and the druid.  I do really like the druid.

Lakoda - Sorry if I came off argumentative.  I just like to cut to the chase and help them make decisions through limitations.  Although, I love creativity - if you want to play a goblin fighter so be it, just work it into the story.

No worries.  With different opinions I didn’t want to start something accidentally.  It is hard with only text to argue constructively.  Invariably someone will take something out of context.  I was just ensuring the context, you were fine. =D

On what BP said, I can see people seeing a new PHB and going 4.5, but 4e has a different sales model with it.  PHBs = classes and <source> power books = builds and options (splatt).  Even hearing WotC say such things, until I got my copy I will admit I was concerned.

I too have allowed any book or article release so far...although I have yet to have players take many options.

I feel that 4e is the easiest edition of D&D to optimize in, but the hardest to actually powergame. If that makes sense to anyone other than me....

I agree with what I believe you are saying. 4e is the edition where when you build a character around an idea...picking things based on flavor, you end up with a character that doesn’t suck. While at the same time, if you were to build a character attempting to munchkin the whole way, you aren’t too far ahead of the previous build I spoke of.

Is that what you had in mind?

I feel that 4e is the easiest edition of D&D to optimize in, but the hardest to actually powergame. If that makes sense to anyone other than me....

Because of this statement and one of my players calling me out on it, I totally agree with. 

I’ve played D&D twice since 1991 and have been a DM the rest of that time.  Now I’m getting a chance to finally play again after finding another solid DM who wants to run.  I guess I didn’t know you could change out powers and such.  Okay, then I guess I don’t really have an issue with a Martial Powers 2 book other than maybe release other class related books before making the announcement.

Arcane Power, Divine Power, and Primal Power are all scheduled for release later this year.  The fact that their moving on to a Martial Power 2 is simply a product of the limited number of power sources developed so far and the fact that the whole point of a playtest article is to pick something that is way down the road and still fairly unfinished in order to give D&DI;players a chance to actually playtest it and provide feedback on the play experience that can then influence the final release.  It’s too late in the development cycle for the other Powers 1 books for that.

Lakoda, you wrote

Almost every level 1 I’ve seen is 18 18 12 11 11 8 builds (except at the game day).

How is this possible if they’re not rolling it up on their own.  It’s not anything set from the array and to “purchase” points is NOT a 1:1.  Is this pre-racial bonuses or after?