We had our first session after the holiday hiatus last night. The campaign is Age of Worms and long story short, the wizard and I got kidnapped and tried to fight our way out...things didn’t turn out well for me. Without spoiling anything for others possibly playing the modules, I as a level 7 druid without any gear or my animal companion was solo against six CR 9s. My wizard buddy was unable to help...I didn’t make it. Not even close.
My DM expressed to me that he would prefer I came in with a different character. The game is currently 395xp short of level 8, so they will be level 8 once I get introduced and I’m sure I will be 7-8 depending on what I can convince him of.
The rest of the party is:
Human Fighter (Sword and Board, broadblade Shortsword fighting defensively)
Human Cleric (Going Radiant Servant)
Human Wizard (Focuses on battlefield control with things like fogs, walls, webs, etc.)
Halfing Rogue/Shadowbane Stalker (focuses on feinting in combat)
This will leave me with pretty much no specific role to fill. The catch is to find something interesting to play and that falls into the sources allowed.
Allowed Sources:
PHB
DMG
MM
CAr
CAv
CD
CW
PHB2
SC
MiC (on case by case)
To summarize that is Core + Complete + Players 2, Spell Compendium and Some Magic Item Compendium. The DM is against using the SRD and the Errata for the books. We are using 35 point buy and I would assume normal starting gold.
Looks like the party could use a damage dealer. You got a tank, battlefield control, rogue and a cleric. Best fit would be some kind of character that can deal lots of damage.
Could be an arcane blaster or just some kind of melee build.
TALAE SMASH!
A favoured damage dealer at my table is the goliath barbarian w/goliath warhammer. It has 3d6 base damage, so it always hits for a lot. But this is also become boring at my table, cause it’s been played repeatedly by one of two particular players for the past 2 and 1/2 campaigns.
I’d go blaster for sure. Looks like warmage is within the allowed books, eh? I love warmage.
I’ll agree with Rothe that a damage dealer would round out this group rather well. My first choice for that would be a Talon of Tiamat-based build, a LE mercenary with a loyal/honorable personality, though it’s dependent on using the Draconomicon. I’d suggest going for a nonstandard arcane Gish build. My personal preference for this is Sorcerer, and the high spells/day works well with non-spell damage abilities like Arcane Strike and Draconic Breath. Class variants are good for this, such as Stalwart Sorcerer (CM), Metamagic Specialist (PH2), and especially Battle Sorcerer (UA, SRD) though it probably wouldn’t be available in this game. My current favorite Gish build is actually a single-classed Stalwart Battle Sorcerer, with either Improved Familiar (CW) or Dragon Familiar. Another idea would be a Warlock with the feats Obtain Familiar (CA) and Improved Familiar, assuming Invocations could be used with Share Spells despite being considered spell-like abilities.
I forgot to mention that the base classes must be from the PHB (so no Warlock or Warmage), also no evil alignment and I don’t know if I can swing anything fro Draconomicon. I also doubt that I will be able to convince the DM of battle sorcerer. UA is mostly in the allowed books for us to have a single flaw. I was also informed that I am allowed to use Complete Mage and Complete Scoundrel. This makes me tempted to build a gish...since I have never done so.
I think I am decided on going with a build that utilizes Ardent Savant(CAr) and Abjurant Champion(CM). I will ask about Dragonslayer(Drc) and Battle Sorcerer(UA), as they both help this build. If Battle Sorcerer won’t work, the wizard levels are probably superior and the build so far would look something like (in this order): Fighter 2/Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Ardent Savant 5/___________ 3.
Argent Savant isn’t a typical Gish class, you take a loss to both BAB and casting for it and it doesn’t contribute to your melee damage. If you’re going to include a PrC with wizard BAB, a good build would be Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/ PrC 4/ Eldritch Knight 9, possibly substituting some EK levels for Abjurant Champion. That gets you 9th level spells and a +16 BAB at level 20, plus four levels worth of a decent casting PrC such as Incantatrix, Master Specialist, or something else beneficial to this type of character’s areas of focus. Even if a PrC is 5 levels, stopping at 4 saves you from losing a point of BAB plus there’s not a single class that improves your saving throws at the 5th level.
Abjurant Champion looks good, but it isn’t necessarily worth spending a feat on Combat Casting to gain when EK can be taken for no investment. The only real reason to take it at all is its first and second level abilities. Swift Abjuration makes taking all 5 levels good for use with Dispel Magic and Protection from Energy, but there aren’t really any decent 2nd level spells to use with it so just stopping at Abjurant Champion 2 for a free quicken on Shield, Nightshield, and Protection from Evil is often this class’s best use. As it turns out if you’re going to take levels in both this class and Eldritch Knight, you may as well take more levels of this instead of more EK.
If you don’t care too much about your spellcasting ability, taking four levels of Arcane Duelist is a very powerful choice. Dextrous Attack’s interaction with two-handed Power Attack comes up with either free attack bonus or free damage bonus, and you’d get your Cha bonus to AC. The free Enhancement points on your weapon could make it exceed +5, thereby overcoming DR/epic, and you can apply the bonus from Greater Magic Weapon before this bonus is added. The poor BAB and loss of spellcasting is a huge deterrent for this class, but in many cases it’s still worth considering.
A good build to use would be Fighter 1/ Sorcerer 6/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 7. That gets 9th level spells and a +17 BAB at level 20, and if you use Battle Sorcerer you can cut two Sorcerer levels out of the build early in exchange for taking more EK levels later on. Use a reach weapon with Combat Reflexes, and get Power Attack, Leap Attack, and Arcane Strike. Use a +1 Spell Storing Glaive and put a Vampiric Touch into it so you can heal yourself while still attacking when needed. A Lesser Rod of Maximize on that won’t effect whether it can be placed into the Spell Storing weapon. Use (Lesser Rod of Quickened) True Strike and charge in with Power Attack and Leap Attack, and on the next round use Arcane Strike and full-attack while still using Power Attack. Use the PHB2 variant for Sorcerer so you can cast your spells with metamagic feats without extending the casting time. Wraithstrike is a superb spell to use, especially with a Lesser Rod of Extend (metamagic won’t even increase the casting time of a Swift Action spontaneous spell) or even Persistent Spell, which would also be good with spells like Shield and Displacement. Another good trick would be to take Draconic Heritage for Draconic Breath and Practical Metamagic (RotD): Persistent, if you can use feats from that book. The spell Blinding Breath is absurdly powerful, so any character with Draconic Heritage should get Draconic Breath just to use it. Ability Focus (MM): Draconic Breath may even be a good choice if you have feats to spare.
One good combination is to take the feats Snowcasting (FB), Energy Substitution: Electricity, and Born of the Three Thunders (CA), with the spells Dragon Breath and Contingency and possibly Conjure Component (CM) if necessary. Snowcasting adds the cold subtype to a spell at the cost of a handfull of snow as an additional component, which can be provided via Conjure Component. That allows any spell to be eligible for Energy Substitution: Electricity, which makes it eligible for Born of the Three Thunders. Put a Three Thunders Dragon Breath in a Contingency, and immediately after casting it you’ll be dazed but it will still be stored. Make it trigger on an active mental command (free action to activate), and you can turn it on whenever you want without suffering the dazed effect again. For the spell’s duration, you can throw around Three Thunders Dragon Breaths and anyone damaged will have to make saves to avoid being stunned and knocked prone.
Argent Savant isn’t a typical Gish class, you take a loss to both BAB and casting for it and it doesn’t contribute to your melee damage. If you’re going to include a PrC with wizard BAB, a good build would be Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/ PrC 4/ Eldritch Knight 9, possibly substituting some EK levels for Abjurant Champion. That gets you 9th level spells and a +16 BAB at level 20, plus four levels worth of a decent casting PrC such as Incantatrix, Master Specialist, or something else beneficial to this type of character’s areas of focus. Even if a PrC is 5 levels, stopping at 4 saves you from losing a point of BAB plus there’s not a single class that improves your saving throws at the 5th level.
I hadn’t noticed the lack of spellcasting in ardent savant. This class is definitely not as good as it seemed. I was currently more concerned with the first half of the levels anyway, but on this note the build would currently be sitting at Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 8, unless something better arises. (+18 BAB, 17th level caster). There is always the possibility of lowering the BAB and adding Master Specialist.
Biffoniacus Furious - 07 January 2008 03:51 PM
Abjurant Champion looks good, but it isn’t necessarily worth spending a feat on Combat Casting to gain when EK can be taken for no investment. The only real reason to take it at all is its first and second level abilities. Swift Abjuration makes taking all 5 levels good for use with Dispel Magic and Protection from Energy, but there aren’t really any decent 2nd level spells to use with it so just stopping at Abjurant Champion 2 for a free quicken on Shield, Nightshield, and Protection from Evil is often this class’s best use. As it turns out if you’re going to take levels in both this class and Eldritch Knight, you may as well take more levels of this instead of more EK.
The full 5 levels benefit by having the additional AC bump for shield/armor bonuses from abjuration. As far as the Combat Casting feat, I will be trying to get Skill Focus:Concentration as an alternative.
Biffoniacus Furious - 07 January 2008 03:51 PM
If you don’t care too much about your spellcasting ability, taking four levels of Arcane Duelist is a very powerful choice. Dextrous Attack’s interaction with two-handed Power Attack comes up with either free attack bonus or free damage bonus, and you’d get your Cha bonus to AC. The free Enhancement points on your weapon could make it exceed +5, thereby overcoming DR/epic, and you can apply the bonus from Greater Magic Weapon before this bonus is added. The poor BAB and loss of spellcasting is a huge deterrent for this class, but in many cases it’s still worth considering.
As nice as this seems, I doubt that my DM will go for a PrC from the web (I don’t even think that the Web Enhancements will be allowed). As far as spellcasting priority, I would like to keep both my BAB and caster levels as high as possible, as I will be hopefully be helping out with both roles.
Biffoniacus Furious - 07 January 2008 03:51 PM
A good build to use would be Fighter 1/ Sorcerer 6/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 7. That gets 9th level spells and a +17 BAB at level 20, and if you use Battle Sorcerer you can cut two Sorcerer levels out of the build early in exchange for taking more EK levels later on. Use a reach weapon with Combat Reflexes, and get Power Attack, Leap Attack, and Arcane Strike. Use a +1 Spell Storing Glaive and put a Vampiric Touch into it so you can heal yourself while still attacking when needed. A Lesser Rod of Maximize on that won’t effect whether it can be placed into the Spell Storing weapon. Use (Lesser Rod of Quickened) True Strike and charge in with Power Attack and Leap Attack, and on the next round use Arcane Strike and full-attack while still using Power Attack. Use the PHB2 variant for Sorcerer so you can cast your spells with metamagic feats without extending the casting time. Wraithstrike is a superb spell to use, especially with a Lesser Rod of Extend (metamagic won’t even increase the casting time of a Swift Action spontaneous spell) or even Persistent Spell, which would also be good with spells like Shield and Displacement. Another good trick would be to take Draconic Heritage for Draconic Breath and Practical Metamagic (RotD): Persistent, if you can use feats from that book. The spell Blinding Breath is absurdly powerful, so any character with Draconic Heritage should get Draconic Breath just to use it. Ability Focus (MM): Draconic Breath may even be a good choice if you have feats to spare.
Why sorcerer over wizard? I would have thought that it would benefit the other way around. I was debating between the use of a spiked chain and a falchion and spell storing with vampiric touch was a definite. The other tricks were actually in my notes (I had Shock Trooper due to the possibility of such a high AC, up for comments there as well).
Biffoniacus Furious - 07 January 2008 03:51 PM
One good combination is to take the feats Snowcasting (FB), Energy Substitution: Electricity, and Born of the Three Thunders (CA), with the spells Dragon Breath and Contingency and possibly Conjure Component (CM) if necessary. Snowcasting adds the cold subtype to a spell at the cost of a handfull of snow as an additional component, which can be provided via Conjure Component. That allows any spell to be eligible for Energy Substitution: Electricity, which makes it eligible for Born of the Three Thunders. Put a Three Thunders Dragon Breath in a Contingency, and immediately after casting it you’ll be dazed but it will still be stored. Make it trigger on an active mental command (free action to activate), and you can turn it on whenever you want without suffering the dazed effect again. For the spell’s duration, you can throw around Three Thunders Dragon Breaths and anyone damaged will have to make saves to avoid being stunned and knocked prone.
Since Frostburn and the above mentioned things in a Races of ____ book a not in allowed books, I will have to rely on other tricks up my sleeve.
The full 5 levels benefit by having the additional AC bump for shield/armor bonuses from abjuration. As far as the Combat Casting feat, I will be trying to get Skill Focus:Concentration as an alternative.
Mage Armor is a Conjuration. Currently, Shield and Ectoplasmic Armor are the only spells that benefit from this.
Wizard is better for preparing ahead of time to have the right spells for a given situation. I prefer Sorcerer for a Gish because your limited number of spells known is still enough to round out your repertoire with something to deal with nearly any situation, and spend your spell slots on those as necessary. The primary purpose of a Gish is to use spellcasting to boost melee combat, and Arcane Strike may as well be just another spell known which does this job better than any other spell currently available. You want more spells/day to use Arcane Strike more often, plus you don’t want to spend a lot of time creating a well-rounded list of prepared spells for a Wizard gish only to run into a situation when you need to cast the one utility spell you’d already lost for an Arcane Strike. Sorcerer is better for versatility at the moment, whereas Wizard is better suited for preparing the right spells ahead of time for a given situation.
Mage Armor is a Conjuration. Currently, Shield and Ectoplasmic Armor are the only spells that benefit from this.
Wasnt that Errata’d? Im sure I read that somewhere, maybe in the “Ask the Wizard” Column in an old Dragon or on the Web-Site.
Other than that, I like the Abjurant Champion/Argent Savant path, I had a Wizard going that way but the game fell apart around level 3… so that pretty much ended that for me.
Wasnt that Errata’d? Im sure I read that somewhere, maybe in the “Ask the Wizard” Column in an old Dragon or on the Web-Site.
Other than that, I like the Abjurant Champion/Argent Savant path, I had a Wizard going that way but the game fell apart around level 3… so that pretty much ended that for me.
Wizard is better for preparing ahead of time to have the right spells for a given situation. I prefer Sorcerer for a Gish because your limited number of spells known is still enough to round out your repertoire with something to deal with nearly any situation, and spend your spell slots on those as necessary. The primary purpose of a Gish is to use spellcasting to boost melee combat, and Arcane Strike may as well be just another spell known which does this job better than any other spell currently available. You want more spells/day to use Arcane Strike more often, plus you don’t want to spend a lot of time creating a well-rounded list of prepared spells for a Wizard gish only to run into a situation when you need to cast the one utility spell you’d already lost for an Arcane Strike. Sorcerer is better for versatility at the moment, whereas Wizard is better suited for preparing the right spells ahead of time for a given situation.
I can see that the sorcerer levels would be nice. I can also see that even battle sorcerer level would be fine in a build like this. Actually something like Fighter1/Battle Sorcerer4/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion5/Eldritch Knight9 would be at 19 BAB and 9th level spells. Is there a different gish build that you prefer? I am not set on the PrC, it just seemed nice.
I actually really like the idea of a single-classed Battle Sorcerer with the Stalwart Sorcerer variant (CM) as a Gish build. That gets Cleric BAB, decent weapon proficiencies, unrestricted casting in light armor, 1d8+2+Con HP/level (same average/level as d12+Con), and a strong companion if you take Improved Familiar or Dragon Familiar. It works out much better if Sorcerer is houseruled to grant bonus feats like Wizard does. In my games Sorcerers get either Draconic Heritage or Eschew Materials at level 1, and any Draconic or Metamagic feat at every 5 levels. That also makes it eligible for the same feat variants as Wizards have access to. The build can be adjusted to get +16 BAB by level 20 by including Abjurant Champion 5, though your Familiar will have some abilities delayed. For Battle Sorcerer’s weapon proficiency I’ll usually pick Armor Spikes, and with the free weapon proficiency and Weapon Focus from Stalwart Sorcerer I choose a Glaive. If you want more versatile proficiencies you can go with something with racial proficiencies, preferably Wild Elf or Aasimar. In that case it may be a good idea to take Spirited Charge and use your Improved Familiar as a mount. The spell Heroics can make that available sooner than normal with this sort of build. It would also be useful to get a Familiar with a breath attack and use Share Spells with Blinding Breath.
I’ve actually made up a chart for Spells/Day and Spells Known for a Battle Sorcerer using the Stalwart Sorcerer variant:
I just remembered another Gish build, which uses the Outsider racial proficiency in all martial weapons to go Sorcerer 6/ Eldritch Knight 2/ Dragon Slayer 1/ Spellsword 3/ EK 8. The +0 LA Aasimar is your best choice for this, especially since you’re never required to spend a level on the +1 LA for the rest of the racial abilities. Note that this build was developed before Abjurant Champion was printed, so it could be adapted to something like Sorcerer 6/ EK 9/ Abjurant Champion 5.
The Outsider trick won’t work here, I am limited to PHB for races (I might be able to swing a variant from the MM...maybe, but think human is the best bet anyway). I think I am looking at:
The only thing that I don’t like about this build is that I don’t start in Abjurant Champion. (like I would if I traded sorcerer 6 for wizard 4 and added a second fighter level). Although, I will be starting only 1 caster level down, which isn’t too bad.
I have decided that I want to wield a spiked chain which may steer my build in one direction or the other. What should my feat progression look like with one flaw (most likely inattentive) and human as the race? I would assume that I should be looking at these feats: EWP (Spiked Chain), Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, Power Attack, Leap Attack, Combat Casting, Arcane Strike, Weapon Focus, Persistent Spell and Quicken Spell. I just don’t know what order to put them in.
Combat Expertise is not a feat you want to use in a Cha-based Gish build. You already need four moderately high ability scores (Str, Dex, Con, Cha), so making Int and Wis both dump stats is the best course of action. Feats like EWP and Improved Trip also delay your damage-dealing feats. Also, don’t forget about Practiced Spellcaster, Extend Spell, and even Craft Magic Arms and Armor. A Spiked Chain Gish build is better off using Wizard as you’ll have a high Int anyway, using the Fighter Feat Wizard variant, and taking either another Fighter level or three Spellsword levels.
If you really want to make this a Spiked Chain build, here’s where I’d put the feats:
Flaw: Combat Expertise
Human: Combat Reflexes
Level 1: EWP: Spiked Chain
Fighter 1: Improved Trip
Level 3: Power Attack
Level 6: Combat Casting
Level 9: Arcane Strike
Level 12: Extend Spell
Eldritch Knight 1: Leap Attack
Level 15: Persistent Spell
Level 18: Defensive Sweep (PH2)
Here’s what I’d do for feats without using a Spiked Chain:
Flaw: Combat Casting
Human: Power Attack
Level 1: Extend Spell
Fighter 1: Combat Reflexes
Level 3: Practiced Spellcaster
Level 6: Leap Attack
Level 9: Arcane Strike
Level 12: Persistent Spell
Eldritch Knight 1: Improved Toughness or Cleave
Level 15: Quicken Spell
Level 18: Defensive Sweep (PH2)
You don’t necessarily need Quicken Spell as long as you can get a (lesser, greater) Metamagic Rod of Quicken. One amazing trick is to spend the first round casting a buffing or offensive spell, and cast a (Rod of) Extended Wraithstrike at the end of the round so that it lasts until the end of the round after the next. On the second round, charge in with Power Attack, Leap Attack, and Arcane Strike, then after your attack cast a (Rod of) Quickened Whirling Blade. You’ll get to attack every opponent in a 60-ft line, still gaining your Power Attack/Leap Attack and Arcane Strike damage, with Wraithstrike still up. This can even be repeated on the next round assuming anything is left standing.
Alright then, wizard it is for the chain. I would assume that it will be better to leave the levels as is and just swap sorcerer for wizard instead of going with the more tempting ftr2/wiz4/sps1/Ab.Ch.5/EK8 (more attractive since I start 1 level in the Ab. Ch. PrC).
