JK, I’d take it even one step further. Its not about saves or death or any of that. Its about making someone sit out of the game while everyone else plays for the next hour.
The problem, then, is the fact that raise dead, resurrection, and true resurrection‘s casting times are too long (1 min, 10 min, & 10 min, respectively) to be used in combat. Death may be temporary, but it’s effectively permanent as far as a particular encounter goes. Close wounds, a splat book spell, goes some way towards fixing this problem, but doesn’t go far enough (the healing it provides isn’t enough at higher levels). What is really needed is a way to raise a dead character in the midst of combat.
Hence part of the reason I like psionics over magic.
Ditto’d. Resurrection as a “medical miracle"-type cure (where the victim wasn’t totally dead, just too far gone for any healing spells to matter) applied on the spot really does seem like the best way to handle resurrection in general, as it adds urgency to the death of a PC ("We only have four rounds to revivify Bob!") while not forcing a player to sit out for hours until his character can be raised.
On the other hand though, that makes death cheap and moves it along farther towards MMO style deaths than anything before.
While I understand the reaction, how much fun is a game where there’s no risk of permanent loss? As a writer, I fundamentally object to the idea that player characters should be able to avoid death. A character should die and remain dead if that is where the story goes. It’s one of the reasons I like low magic worlds. Things like Wulfgar coming back from the Abyss wouldn’t happen in Iron Heroes or CoC or even Eberron.
I don’t fudge dice unless I feel it is absolutely necessary for game play, and I think adding or changing mechanics to make death less permanent is a bad idea. Making it harder to die (ie dropping save or die spells completely) and changing to encounter based powers while simultaneously making death permanent (like 4E has done) seems to be the way to go.
That’s up to the player really. If they player likes the character and wants it to live - the player has options to do so. If the player chooses for the character to not live, they can also do so.
From SRD:
Maze
Conjuration (Teleportation)
Level: Sor/Wiz 8
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
You banish the subject into an extradimensional labyrinth of force planes. Each round on its turn, it may attempt a DC 20 Intelligence check to escape the labyrinth as a full-round action. If the subject doesn’t escape, the maze disappears after 10 minutes, forcing the subject to leave.
On escaping or leaving the maze, the subject reappears where it had been when the maze spell was cast. If this location is filled with a solid object, the subject appears in the nearest open space. Spells and abilities that move a creature within a plane, such as teleport and dimension door, do not help a creature escape a maze spell, although a plane shift spell allows it to exit to whatever plane is designated in that spell. Minotaurs are not affected by this spell.
You do not get a save. You do get a DC20 Int check per round to escape. Your character had a low intelligence. Bummer. Prepping and buffing is an option. Spellcraft to know what just happend to you, and what it takes to get out and what to expect when you get out.
Hell, my character is technically dead but the option is still there for me to play him either through being some form of mutated/skewed undead or just a good ‘ol Raise. We are not screwed, we have options.
I, personally, have never played a game were the rules allowed me so many options.
Making it harder to die (ie dropping save or die spells completely) and changing to encounter based powers while simultaneously making death permanent (like 4E has done) seems to be the way to go.
Although, the level that we are discussing does indeed have raise dead options and its debatable if the options will be easier or more difficult.
Merc: With the power revivify, you can do it quickly, but only quickly. If you can’t do it fast, you can’t do it at all, and the person stays dead. This is facing permament loss, just in a different way. Plus, if the psion goes down, goodbye!
Merc: With the power revivify, you can do it quickly, but only quickly. If you can’t do it fast, you can’t do it at all, and the person stays dead. This is facing permament loss, just in a different way. Plus, if the psion goes down, goodbye!
Isn’t there a similar spell in the Spell Compendium?
Merc: With the power revivify, you can do it quickly, but only quickly. If you can’t do it fast, you can’t do it at all, and the person stays dead. This is facing permament loss, just in a different way. Plus, if the psion goes down, goodbye!
Is there no other method within psionics to raise the dead? (Just goes to show how much I avoid psionics in my games...)
Is there no other method within psionics to raise the dead? (Just goes to show how much I avoid psionics in my games...)
Just the psionic equivalent of wish. There are powers that let the psion avoid death (astral seed lets the psion create a second body for himself in case he dies, etc.), but that’s pretty much the only way to restore the dead.
That’s up to the player really. If they player likes the character and wants it to live - the player has options to do so. If the player chooses for the character to not live, they can also do so.
You do not get a save. You do get a DC20 Int check per round to escape. Your character had a low intelligence. Bummer. Prepping and buffing is an option. Spellcraft to know what just happend to you, and what it takes to get out and what to expect when you get out.
Hell, my character is technically dead but the option is still there for me to play him either through being some form of mutated/skewed undead or just a good ‘ol Raise. We are not screwed, we have options.
I, personally, have never played a game were the rules allowed me so many options.
Great point man. I do find it refreshing that you can see the options available to you after a marginally successful adventure. I look forward to getting a bit away from the status quo.
What wasn’t fun though is that Jim had to wait so long to come back and immediately get killed. Lots of things contributed to that but the rules didn’t help.
I have never allowed a raise dead type spell in my games. Nobody has ever complained. I think most people feel the cheese factor when they have a character that comes back to life and is glad I just don’t let them.
The story goes on and before long there is someone tied up in the next room that has all his equipment in the room after that… man I miss those days - I wish it were that easy to put new players in the game.
Okay, it’s not just Jim’s character that got the shaft. Carnivore’s character was driven insane and killed off, my character was turned to stone because I failed the impossibly high saving throw, and Kyle and Megan’s characters were transported to some “prison” plane - neither of them have any ability to bring them back. Since Jim’s cleric is dead, it’s going to be interesting to see how we’re ressurected, if at all.
Kevin’s character was barely able to shift to windwalk to get the hell out of Dodge (an ability Jim’s character cast on us), and our friend Kelly summoned his mount - a large bird - and flew out of the caves.
The only redeeming thing about this adventure was that the bird grabbed the lych in it’s talons and flew beyond his circle of protection, thus destroying him into dust (he had no phylactory *sp?*).
So only two of our characters out of seven at the table aren’t fubar’d. :(
