4th & Dragon : Dungeons and Dragons...and stuff

This is a sort of “stream-of-consciousness” brief page-through of the Pathfinder Beta release from Paizo.

Races
* All of the races get a net +2 bonus to ability scores, possibly to bring them up to par with what were perceived to be “too powerful” ECL 0 races. Most races also get a few free weapon proficiencies (dwarves get warhammers and battleaxes, elves get longswords and bows, half-orcs get greataxes and flachions) and Weapon Familiarity (treating weapons with their race in the name as Martial weapons).
* Half-orcs get a neat bonus called “Orc Ferocity”, which lets them fight on for a round after being dropped below 0 HP if the attack doesn’t kill them outright. Not super-powerful, but considering that orcs can choose Druid as a favored class and now get a bonus to wisdom, a healer-orc could actually become even more resilient.
* I like favored class now. You get a bonus hit point or bonus skill point at each level that you take in your favored class, and each race can choose from at least two classes as their favored class. Very, very cool.

Classes
* The GM can choose between one of three XP charts, so characters can level slowly, medium, or quickly. A good choice.
* Most of the classes are being tweaked so that they offer options at most (if not all) levels, so it’s always worth leveling up in a core class (if not required). Barbarians can get different rage powers, cleric domain powers are spread out across 20 levels, fighters becomes downright scary with their favorite weapon group and armor (Gaining +4 to hit and damage by level 20, an increased critical multiplier, +4 to AC from armor, +4 to the armor’s maximum dexterity modifier, and DR 5/-), monks gain a Ki pool that lets them throw around scary numbers of attacks, paladins can either get a mount or an enhanced favored weapon, rangers get favored enemies and favored terrain, rogues are still trapfinders (blech) but they get special rogue talents every even level which are incredibly neat, sorcerers get bloodline feats and bonus spells with a nice selection of bloodlines, and the wizard continuously gets powers associated with his school of choice (for specialists).
* Oh, and no more d4 HD. Nice.

Skills
* Closer to the 3.Xe version of skills than 4e.
* Not a very condensed skill list, though Hide and Move Silently are Stealth, and Spot and Listen became Perception.
* Half-ranks into untrained skills are a thing of the past. All skills are now one-for-one, and you always get X + Intelligence Modifier skill points each level, even at first. However, if you invest in your class skills, you get a +3 bonus to those skills.

Feats
* Characters get a feat at every odd level.
* Lots of feats printed in this chapter, more than the PHB in 3e and 4e. Too many for me to go over

Equipment
* Largely unchanged from 3e.

Alignment
* Largely unchanged from 3e.

Combat
* Swift and immediate actions are in.
* Characters die at a negative hit point total equal to their Constitution score (-10 if your CON is 9 or less).
* Turning undead becomes Channeling Positive Energy, which damages undead, forces them to flee, and heals allies a fair chunk. I really like this. Negative energy does just the opposite.
* All combat maneuvers are resolved using the same statistic: you Combat Maneuver Bonus (CMB). This is helpful in simplifying things, but the maneuvers themselves are still relatively similar to they were in 3e.

Magic
* Still Vancean, as expected. Still, bleh.
* Domains have changed for the better. Rather than granting extra spells, you get a few cool powers (some of which are spell-like abilities). Thumbs up here.
* I’m… actually happy with the polymorph changes. Polymorph-esque spells (including the beast shape series, the basis for the druid’s wildshape) now grant you a small, set number of bonuses based on whether you become a smaller or larger animal, as well as the animal’s mode of movement and other specifically-listed modes of attack. Excellent change.

DM Advice
* Nice to see this in the core book.
* They offer advice and options for both high-fantasy and low-fantasy in terms of magic items, which is nice.
* Improvements in quick NPC construction (such as pregenerated NPC ability score bundles for different types of NPCs independent of class), but still not where I’d want them to be.

Magic Items
* Much more like 3e, which means magic item Christmas trees. While Pathfinder does note how you can reduce the reliance on magic items. I’m not surprised here, but not impressed either.

Glossary
* This gets special attention. Best glossary ever. Many pages, great definitions, lots of densely-packed, useful information (such as “When Spell Resistance Applies” and differentiating all the Charms and Compulsions). Two thumbs up.

Final Thoughts
I would’ve liked to see the game have some more elements I liked from 4e, but I didn’t expect them either. It’s very much a 3.Xe game tweaked in a few places (often much-needed places), but most of those changes are on the character class and race end of things. Overall, an improvement over 3.5 in my mind. It preserves a lot of what people loved about 3.X, makes it better in others, and does a nice job of encouraging players to stick to a core class without forcing them to.

Philosophically, Paizo gets huge thumbs-up for this. A massive, open playtest with ideas being culled from the best of the best on Paizo’s forums. Lots of constant feedback. Open. Regardless of what you think about the game itself, this alone deserves respect.

So what’s my verdict? I’d play it and probably have a great time with it, same as I would with 4e. I’m looking forward to the finished product. Paizo is doing a good job with it.

PS: The art in this book is so anime

Doesn’t seem half bad. Personally, I still prefer 4e, but would go to Pathfinder before going back to 3.5.

Jackelope King - 14 August 2008 02:27 PM

PS: The art in this book is so anime

Maybe this is what I was trying to say in the art thread. Now that you point it out, it does seem more anime to me. I have never been a huge anime fan.

Does this mean that Pathfinder won’t be compatible with 3.5?  If not, I will be disappointed because of my huge investment in 3.5 stuff.  Hopefully I’ll be able to use the Pathfinder adventures.

I could probably upgrade the core classes to Pathfinder standards if that’s all it takes.  Certainly I see a need for it.  But then there are all the prestige classes—some of them also might need to be beefed up.  On the other hand, this might just mean that PCs don’t take levels in prestige classes.

I guess what I’m wondering is whether I should go ahead with Pathfinder or if I should pretend that 2007 never ends.

Utgardloki - 14 August 2008 08:34 PM

I guess what I’m wondering is whether I should go ahead with Pathfinder or if I should pretend that 2007 never ends.

I guess that depends on who you ask. For instance, someone still playing the same campaign from the 70s with only their first (very used) books would most likely say to stick with what you know. I tend to think that 3.5 was good, but has/had many issues. In that light you are better off moving onto 3.75 or 4e.

Utgardloki, Pathfinder is compatible with 3.5e.  That is a huge goal of Paizo’s.  From what I’ve read, I would even venture that you can pretty much use any 3.5 material nearly as is.  Even something that is contradicted by Pathfinder (such as Polymorph) can still be used; it will just be a messy spell that overlaps Pathfinder spells.  The only place I see that you have to alter things is with skills, but it’s pretty clear which skills were combined into what.  So let’s say you have 3.5 Boots of Elvenkind, it’s pretty obvious that they grant +5 to auditory Stealth.

Hm...looks like there have been some changes since Alpha.  I still haven’t had a chance to look over Beta but the changes from Alpha look even better. 

Utgardloki - My opinion is that Pathfinder is 3.75 and is as compatible with 3.5 as 3.0 was.  In fact, probably moreso.  Basically, the biggest change is to make the core classes more appealing so that people aren’t cherry picking the new base classes for abilities as much, have more reason to stick to a core class while not limiting you so much multiclassing isn’t a valid option.  Prestige classes still will work exactly the same way as they did in 3.x with the only possible exception being PrCs that have skill requirements only - some of those might need the requirements boosted up by about 3 points depending on the selections of skill point requirements.  There are few exceptions aside from this (like domain powers changing prerequisites for PrCs and other such minor changes). 

My personal suggestion to you is to look over the book now while it is free in it’s Beta stage.  I doubt it will change much before it’s final release.  From what I know of you I think you’d like it a lot.  I do. 

By the way, I totally agree with everything JK said.  Just to add a few things I liked about it I wanted to touch on those here:
All in all I like the +2 to an ability for all the core races.  I think that these should be the obvious choices for players.  Plus they seem more streamlined now. 
I agree with the favored class bit.  Its sorta like being a parent where positive reinforcement is always better than negetive.  It makes some races actually better at being a class which honestly makes sense to me. 
The different XP charts is also very nice.  Personally I find that if you go by the normal XP chart and CR system that characters level too fast for my taste.  I don’t want to feel like I’m cheating my players out of hard earned XPs either so this is a great thing for me.  I’m really thinking of making the switch in my own game and I’m definately going to run it by my players. 
The tweaks to classes are all awesome.  It is basically like the alternate classes that have been printed in various books.  It gives options for classes so they aren’t so niche.  Its sorta like how rangers could be either TWF or ranged.  It gives all classes uniqueness just from the base class itself.  It doesn’t really make them more powerful but it does make them more versatile.  Well, more choices anyway.  You still get to choose just one of the paths though, so as to not make the base class more powerful, just to give a choice.  Anyway, check it out.  I like it a lot. 
Fighters are much better.  They are what they should be.  The little boost in power they get puts them on par with the other base classes. 
I didn’t expect the skills to be that much more condensed.  I like what they did and am glad they didn’t do too much.  The fact that half ranks have went away is a good thing, IMO. The only possible issue this causes is with PrCs with skill based requirements.  That is very easily remedied though by a couple quick DM tweaks. 
Feats at every odd level is good.  It still gives fighter the advantage while allowing for more character options.  While it makes everyone more powerful it doesn’t upset the overall power curve.  Again, the only possible issue I see is with PrCs and the ability to meet the requires for feats sooner.  This isn’t a major issue as most PrCs with feat requirements also have a BAB requirement as well.  For the few that do not these can also be fixed by simple DM tweaks. 
Turning (Now channeling) is a lot easier to understand. 
Combat Maneuvers is a great change.  It allows monks to use their character level as a bonus rather than their BAB which, IMO, is a great change.  Since I didn’t have a problem with the actual maneuvers themselves in 3.x, I also like these more streamlined versions. 
While I’m not a fan of Vancian magic per se, I also don’t like the at will/per encounter/per day system that 4e uses.  Until there is a good system for fatigue based spell casting, I’m just peachy with Vancian.  It works good within the system of 3.x and thus it works within Pathfinder as well. 
I haven’t yet got to Polymorph changes in Beta so I’m going to reserve my opinions on that.  IMO, it did need to be changed though, so I will look forward to seeing this. 
As far as magic item christmas trees goes, I’ve never had an issue with this.  Some people prefer a small number of more powerful magic items, some prefer several magic trinkets with a focus on a few more powerful items.  I fall into the latter group.  I think those trinkets add dimension to a character.  Honestly, I don’t recall a version of D&D (or similar RPG) where said trinkets weren’t canon.  Even in the literature.  In many cases they help to define a character.  *shrug* No real change in Pathfinder nonetheless, so I’m still satisfied.  I do like the options it gives for a low magic campaign. 
Another important item to note is the change in ability score alocation.  While there are still rolling methods and point buy methods I do want to point out that there has been a slight shift in power to slightly weaker characters ability score-wise.  IMO, this was needed as the racial bonuses are better now and the classes are slightly more powerful. 

In short Pathfinder gets a big fat Lune seal of approval.  Give the system a look over and see if you like it.  What do you have to lose?

Okay, this sounds better.  In my own campaigns I have house-ruled so much on the skills that I can probably either handle whatever Pathfinder throws my way or else do it the way I’ve defined.  And I’ve adjusted the classes for 3.5, so adjusting it for Pathfinder shouldn’t be a problem.  And I’ve gotten into the habit of tweaking PrCs on the fly, especially after the release of 3.5.

It sounds like if nothing else, the book sounds like a good source of ideas for fine tuning my 3.x campaigns.

Utgardloki - 15 August 2008 08:21 AM

Okay, this sounds better.  In my own campaigns I have house-ruled so much on the skills that I can probably either handle whatever Pathfinder throws my way or else do it the way I’ve defined.  And I’ve adjusted the classes for 3.5, so adjusting it for Pathfinder shouldn’t be a problem.  And I’ve gotten into the habit of tweaking PrCs on the fly, especially after the release of 3.5.

It sounds like if nothing else, the book sounds like a good source of ideas for fine tuning my 3.x campaigns.

And you can’t beat free.

They could pay us to play.

Aranan - 15 August 2008 09:07 AM

They could pay us to play.

As much as I’d love that, it may be asking a little too much.

I just pitched play-testing Pathfinder to my PbP group.  We’ll see if they bite.  We were going to stick with 3.5e for the time being, but now . . .

I’m going to give the pitch to my group next time we play.  We will have to convert though (not a big deal really).  I’ll let you all know how it goes.

Hmm.. I never even thought about Pathfinder until just now....

cleric domain powers are spread out across 20 levels

That is something I have been doing in 3.x for sometime now… Always seemed like a good idea, to me.

Have to admit their artwork ROOOOOOOOCCCCKSSSS!!

Every session in my Vagabonds campaign we make a Pathfinder Alpha tweak and the conversion is pretty smooth. The worst thing to have happened is forgettting changes in skills so far. We have not fully converted class or xp yet but we will discuss this soon.

Regardless, I don’t think my players really care. They are having a good time and one of them owns a pizza place and we play in the basement of it. Pizza every 2-3 hours and free soda! If Paizo could do that too ...

And yeah, I like the heavy WAR art.

Wow, DC...got any room in that campaign?  I can’t think of a better setting!