4th & Dragon : Dungeons and Dragons...and stuff

The game I’ve been playing in is wrapping up and I am going to start running my own.  As I’ve been ramping up for this I found that I am having some trouble with Concealment.  Cover is easy, concealment is annoyingly convoluted in my eyes.  I’ll try to least each sticking point I have.

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1 - Wall of Fog (Wizard Utility 6) blocks line of sight and grants concealment to those in it’s space.  I understand this means that if you are positioned on the opposite side of the wall from an opponent, you have total concealment (assuming you aren’t one of the walls end squares).  Do I understand this correctly?

C = Character, E = Enemy, W = Wall of Fog, . = Empty Space

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2 - Winter’s Wrath (Wizard Attack 7) grants concealment to those in it’s space but does not block line of sight.  What does this mean if you are again positioned opposite your opponent???

C = Character. E = Enemy, W = Winter’s Wrath area burst, O = Origin Square, . = Empty Space

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3 - Acid Storm (Wizard Attack 23) blocks line of sight and grants total concealment.  So creatures in the area burst would be totally concealed and if I’m opposite an enemy (with the burst between us) we’d also be totally concealed from one another (just like with the wall of fog).

C = Character. E = Enemy, W = Acid Storm, O = Origin Square, . = Empty Space

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4 - Bling-Fight (Epic tier feat) allows you to ignore concealment or invisibility of adjacent creatures.  If you can ignore invisibility couldn’t you ignore total concealment as well?  Is this something that would be clarified in the errata eventually or am I just missing something?  Similarly for Font of Radiance, you remove invisibility and concealment but what about total concealment?  Generally the books do a good job of referring to concealment and total concealment as two different things, if they mean both that say both, they don’t assume you’ll figure out that in this one special case concealment really means concealment and total concealment, but these two examples don’t may any sense to me.

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5 - Perfect Hunter’s Weapon allows you to automatically pin point the location of hidden or covered creatures within 10 squares, so you can attack their square and have a chance in hell of hitting them.  But wait there’s more, order now and we’ll throw in ignoring cover/concealment and a +5 to attack.  This tells me that if covered or concealed I can attack them without any penalties and with the +5 bonus, but if they have total concealment or superior cover I can attack them with a -5 penalty and a +5 bonus, effectively breaking even.  Do I understand that correctly?

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6 - If I’m in dim light (assuming no one as low-light or dark vision) and I’m standing in a wall of fog do I have total concealment?  Basically to multiple lightly obscuring effects stack to be heavily obscuring or totally obscuring?  What about heavily obscuring stacking for total obscuring?

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7 - If I’m standing behind something that doesn’t block line of sight but does lightly obscure am I considered to be concealed?  Like in item 2 above.

C = Character, E = Enemy, S = Smoke (lightly obscured squares)
My best guess is that if it blocks at least all 4 line of sight line you have concealment (total if it is totally obscuring or heavy and not adjacent), if one gets through you have line of sight and no penalties.  Is that correct?

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Sorry this is so long but I’d really appreciate any and all help!
~ ~ Lakoda ~ ~

I thought that they will state if you have total concealment(-5 penalty to attacks) or Concealment(-2 penalty to attacks).  It blocks sight by not line of effect(so no cover)

I will have to look at each of these points while I have my books in front of me to be sure.  Will post again when i have the books in front of me.

I had a big long post but when i got to number 6 I had to change my answers to most

Page 61 of the DMG tells us about Obscured Terrain.

edit: Decided to include this. as long as
1. Concealment
2. total concealment
3. total Concealment

Number 4 and 5 seem to be using concealment as a grand term. 

4. I would rule that it includes total concealment

5. It would be the Basic Attack(with the +6 enhancement bonus added in) +5 for the power bonus and no penalities for cover or concealment.  I picture the arrow as a phasing arrow that pops on the shadow plane to avoid all the cover and stuff.  Or it could be a teleporter.  Looks like a magic arrow power.

6. 5 or more lightly obscured squares between you and it = total concealment.  I would say that for number 1 if you were in dim light it is still concealment unless you have three more light obscured instances on you, (like Dim light, the wall, smoke and something else).  But this is mainly a DM’s Call on stacking of effects.  Pg61 of the DMG only deals with distance

7. seems that pg 273 of the PHB answers this.  They would have Concealment.

Most of my answers come from Pg 61 DMG, pg 273 of PHB and Pg 281 and 280 of the PHB.  Of course i referenced the powers and feats you mentioned as well.

Also pg 43 of the DMG gives us this rule relating to cover and I assume it can be applied a little to concealment too:  “In D&D, though, we recommend that you make a quick decision about cover and move on the the fun.”

Seems like they don’t want to get into the details of cover and concealment as much anymore and leave it more up to the DM to decide things.

I’m really sorry for not addressing the issues individually, but “Bling-Fight (Epic tier feat)” sounds incredibly awesome.

Thanks Frost, I appreciate the answers.  I have a 2 follow up question, but over all you helped a lot.  Generally, I think I get it, but there are a lot of edge cases I can see arising that aren’t accounted for.  I will be homebrewing something that is simpler to use and doesn’t have the number of edge cases....I hope.  I’m sure if it was that easy WotC would have done it but I’m giving it a shot.  The real problem I see is that the split the rules all over hell in the books; on different pages, and even in different books entirely.  I think I can unify it at the very least and in much more succinct manor.

FrostNumenor - 17 September 2008 01:45 PM

edit: Decided to include this. as long as
1. Concealment
2. total concealment
3. total Concealment

So these first few were answers I thought I knew, but you have the opposite answer then I expected or 1 & 2.  Can you explain?  Granted I don’t really follow the edit in conjunction with the answers to 1 - 3.

FrostNumenor - 17 September 2008 01:45 PM

6. 5 or more lightly obscured squares between you and it = total concealment.  I would say that for number 1 if you were in dim light it is still concealment unless you have three more light obscured instances on you, (like Dim light, the wall, smoke and something else).  But this is mainly a DM’s Call on stacking of effects.  Pg61 of the DMG only deals with distance

Problem is, they removed that 5 or most lightly = total thing completely in errata.

That edit: ....  as long as, the as long as part shouldn’t be there.  Sorry about that.  The edit was to include answers to each individually. 

I will have to check the errata.  if they removed it without accounting for it then, I think i am going to play without the errata otherwise you have a huge gray area.  I will check out the errata and see what i can come back up with.

edit:
Well it appears this is another thing I don’t like about the errata.  I have no Idea why they would delete such a nice ruling.  I mean it didn’t handle every instance, but it helped alot.

With out the errata it basically seems like none of your examples have a RAW to rule that either the E or the C has concealment or total concealment. 

I mean I guess they want concealment to follow the rule on Pg 43 of the DMG dealing with the make a quick ruling and move on.  Streamlineing seems to have been taken to the extreme with the new errata. 

Not a fan of the skill challenge redo and now this. 

I will play as if the errata for pg 61 of the DMG doesn’t exist.  I am going to try to find a reason they did this other than making a streamlining call so you don’t count squares.

second edit:

I have emailed wizards to find out why and to find out how they would rule the above now that post errata removed any RAW to answer them.

FrostNumenor - 18 September 2008 09:55 AM

With out the errata it basically seems like none of your examples have a RAW to rule that either the E or the C has concealment or total concealment.

That’s what I thought, glad I’m not completely crazy.  I’m working up a homebrewed system for cover/concealment, I’ll post it here when I’m done.

Here is what I am planning on running for cover/concealment rules (with the new stealth errata) in my game.  I would post just the few minor changes but (1) these rules are spread out all over hell in the books and I wanted them in a single location, and (2) my changes are pretty subtle so I didn’t think it was useful to look at alone.

I started by amassing RAR and getting a unified location for all the RAR cover and concealment rules.  Then I went through and filled in holes I felt were present, the areas were fringe cases weren’t covered by RAR (though I would argue that they aren’t that fringe).  Finally I made changes so it would make sense to me in how I thought the mechanics should work.

Here it is!  I’m hoping to get some feedback on weather I missed anything or if I screwed up and broke it.  This isn’t going to be for everybody (or even most people), but it’s for me, so honest opinions are appreciated.

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Line of Sight
Trace a line from any corner of any square of your space to any corner of any square of the target’s space.  If that line is not blocked or obscured by objects or effects you have line of sight to the target.
Line of sight is not blocked the line traced travels along the edge of a square that would block or obscure it if it were to pass through it.
Line of sight is blocked if the line traced diagonally touches the corner of a square that would normally block or obscure it if it were to pass through it.

Line of Effect
Trace a line from any corner of any square of your space to any corner of any square of the target’s space.  If that line is not blocked by objects or effects you have line of effect to the target.
Burst and blast effects use there origin square as their space for determining line of effect to targets.
Line of effect is not blocked the line traced travels along the edge of a square that would block it if it were to pass through it.
Line of effect is blocked if the line traced diagonally touches the corner of a square that would normally block it if it were to pass through it.

Cover
Trace four lines from any one corner of one square of your space to each of the four corners of one square of the target’s space, each line to a different corner.
If one or two lines are blocked by an object or effect the target has cover
Cover inflicts a -2 penalty to attack rolls.
If three lines are blocked by an object or effect that target has superior cover.
Superior Cover inflicts a -5 penalty to attack rolls.
If all four lines are blocked by an object or effect then there is no line of effect to the target and you cannot affect it, it has Total Cover from you.
If more then one object or effect blocks a line the line is still only counts as one blocked line. (see partial blocking terrain for more information)
Area and Close attacks use their origin square as their space when determining cover to targets.
Melee Reach attacks cannot reach around objects or effects to avoid cover unless they have four blocked lines to the target.
Enemies grant cover against Ranged attacks, but allies do not.
The penalties from cover and superior cover stack with concealment or total concealment, but not with one another.

Blocking Terrain
Examples of blocking terrain are: walls, doors, columns, statues, et cetera.
Blocking terrain blocks line of effect (and possibly line of sight) and generally fills the entirety of squares (or cubes if concerned with 3D)

Partial Blocking Terrain
Examples of partial blocking terrain are: low walls, carts, portcullises, windows, grates, arrow slits, et cetera.
Partial blocking terrain is just line normal blocking terrain except that there are some sort of limiting factor, just as height (low wall, cart) or open spaced within the feature (window, grate, arrow slit, portcullis).
Partial blocking terrain blocks one less line then normal blocking terrain.
Subtract 1 from the total number of blocked lines for each square of partial blocking terrain that blocks at least one line.
If more then one partial blocking terrain blocks a line the line is blocked as though it was blocked by normal blocking terrain.
If a line is blocked by partial blocking terrain as well as normal blocking terrain, the line is blocked; normal blocking terrain trumps partial blocking terrain.

Concealment
Trace one line from any one corner of one square of your space to one corners of one square of the target’s space.
A target has concealment when the line passes through the following:
- Fewer then 5 squares of lightly obscuring effects.
- One square of heavily obscuring effects while the target is adjacent to you.
Concealment inflicts a -2 penalty to attack rolls.
A target has total concealment when the line passes through the following:
- 5 or more squares of lightly obscuring effects.
- One square of heavily obscuring effects while the target is not adjacent to you.
- Any number of squares of totally obscuring effects or normal blocking terrain.
Total Concealment inflicts a -5 penalty to attack rolls.
Even if you can’t see the target, if you have line of effect you can always attack a square you think an enemy occupies, taking the -5 penalty to attack rolls for total concealment (if the attack is Melee or Ranged).
A perception check against the target’s stealth can reveal their general direction or their exact location if you beat it by 10 or more.  Pinpointing their exact location does not always allow you to see them, depending on how they are concealed from you, you only know which square(s) to attack in which case you will suffer the -5 penalty for total concealment).
Area and Close attacks ignore concealment.
The penalties from concealment and total concealment stack with cover and superior cover, but not with one another.

Lightly Obscured
A square is lightly obscured if it contains one of the following effects: dim light, foliage, fog, smoke, heavy snow or rain fall, et cetera.

Heavily Obscured
A square is heavily obscured if it contains two or more lightly obscured effect, or one of the following effects: heavy fog, heavy smoke, heavy foliage, et cetera.

Totally Obscured
A square is totally obscured if it contains two or more heavily obscured effects, or one of the following effects: total darkness, magical darkness, normal blocking terrain, et cetera.

Invisible
You can’t be seen by normal forms of vision
You have combat advantage against any enemy that cannot see you.
You do not provoke opportunity attacks from enemies that cannot see you.

Partial blocking terrain blocks one less line then normal blocking terrain.
Subtract 1 from the total number of blocked lines for each square of partial blocking terrain that blocks at least one line.
If more then one partial blocking terrain blocks a line the line is blocked as though it was blocked by normal blocking terrain.

This doesn’t make sense.  It would be better if partial blocking terrain counted as a 1/2 blocked line (i.e. two partial blockings are a full blocking) and each line has a limit of 1 that it can contribute.

I worked with that a little but I hate half numbers, and the numbers did work out right in all cases for me.

If a partially blocking feature blocks all 4 lines you have either .5 * 4 = 2 (Cover) or 4 -1 = 3 (Superior Cover).  I only wanted the feature to shift the result at most one level.  If it was normal terrain, blocking all more would be total cover and you couldn’t target, and shifting it one level to Superior required the -1 method.

I know what you’re saying, but it was a conscious decision on my part.

Then you need to rephrase:

Subtract 1 from the total number of blocked lines for each square of partial blocking terrain that blocks at least one line.

As it stands if a partially blocking feature blocks all four lines you subtract 4 from the number of blocked lines, not one.  What it should say is:

Subtract 1 from the total number of blocked lines if at least one line is blocked only by partial blocking terrain.

Black Plauge - 19 September 2008 01:00 PM

Then you need to rephrase

Yes, yes I do.  Thx!