4th & Dragon : Dungeons and Dragons...and stuff

Spoiler Warning- this post contains some spoilers from the 3.5 adventure Barrow of the Forgotten King

Hi all-

I’m in the process of trying to convert this adventure. There’s a puzzle that I’d like to turn into a Skill Challenge, but I’m not sure how. It’s called The Beholder Room and involves the following door inscription:

The puzzle involves a room in which the heroes must figure out which of ten tiles are in the wrong places and sort them correctly to open a passageway. There are skill checks involved to gain hints about what to do and punitive effects for trying to pick up the wrong tiles. I think the whole thing is way too easy, but the picture’s pretty cool so I’d like to use it as the basis for a Skill Challenge.

Do any of you Big Brains have any good ideas you’d like to share to help me out?

I think it’s safe to say that no one will have the skill Knowledge: Puzzles.  So everyone has a chance here.  It also seems like there isn’t an opportunity to use the method of (x) amount of successes before (y) amount of failures. 

Keep in mind it’s not for the players to figure out, rather the characters to figure out. 

My Approach:

-Let the players choose which attribute to challenge it with (INT or WIS bonus). 

-Figure out how difficult this is for the characters to pass, and assign a DC.  So if someone has a 18 INT they’re +4, I think DC20 would be really difficult, so I would choose DC15.  If this is higher level with some pretty exceptional stats, maybe adjust the DC up a couple, but I don’t think no more than 17 or 18. 

-Based on how many times they need to roll (sounds like 10) and the damage they risk use that to guide what level this challenge is.  Maybe party level +1. 

-Assisting?  Sure, but at this point I go with my DM gut.  I encourage those at my table with “If you think you can do this, assist, if not don’t.” Because if you have one assist and one fail at it, I take away the +2 from the assist.  Assist DC?  I think if they get within 5 of the DC, they can grant +2.  Sort of means like they guessed right. 

hope this helps.  I run a pretty difficult set of skills rules at my table.  When the errata said to reduce all the numbers by 5.  I went the other way and boosted them all by 5.

Thanks!
I was thinking of going a bit further than that though.

Since there are 5 pairs of eyes plus the one central eye, my thinking was this:

There will be a main chamber representing the central eye and five side chambers. Thats six chambers, one for each ability score. I was thinking the Central Eye chamber would be an Intelligence Ability challenge and act as a reset button- after so many (2?) failures in any of the five side chambers, the reset button would have to be activated (thus undoing any of the chambers that had been successfully defeated and starting the whole thing over again.
Once all five of the side chambers had been defeated, the central eye would open up, revealing the passage. How any of this relates to the riddle, I have no idea.

What do you think? Is this too difficult? Too frustrating?

I think that if your players have to complete the same riddles/puzzles multiple times only to fail on one or two constantly then it might be too frustrating.  I think that if they only have to hit the reset button two or three times then they should be ok with that (unless you have a group that would think that too long, but you know them )

Maybe have some sort of reward for completing the entire puzzle, like some item to help them on their quest or maybe a short cut through the dungeon (I assume they are in a dungeon/temple of some sort?)

But also have a “you fail” kind of method, so that if they just keep screwing up the puzzle just locks up.  Maybe drop them down a chute if they fail more than 3 times.  Could be activated by the reset button.  Which has multiple purposes, hurt them from the fall (just minor damage, check the fall tables), maybe have them go a longer path through the dungeon, or have to fight some sort of strong monster(s) to get back on the right path.  Like an extra encounter room they fall into that has stairs leading to the correct path but a few baddies in the way.

From what I have read of skill challenges in 4E, there always seems to be a fail option.  Even if it sucks for the party to mess up something, it honestly has to happen sometimes.  Just so that they know your not just handing them an adventure, that they have to pay if they make mistakes (or bad rolls ) Failure is an option, even if you might feel bad doing it to them, stuff like that makes sense to happen.  They can’t always get everything right.

Of course this is all my opinion, feel free to pick and choose what you would like to use or choose not to go with that at all

I don’t think it’s too hard.  And, I agree with Chad, you don’t want it to be too frustrating.  Since 4th edition is to be more streamlined, if they fail a riddle or test, have a monster magically port in.  This way they won’t just sit there and roll and roll and roll until they finally pass.  So to make it more insteresting, have them literally fight something.  Should they win, they pass that part.

Thanks guys!

Here’s what I have so far. Please know this is a first draft and I plan to “tweak” it. Any and all feedback is welcome!

4-Beholder Room
Skill Challenge 500 xp
Entry Door Puzzle Only good characters may see and manipulate the puzzle. DC 20, Prime Skill: Dungeoneering, Optional Skill: Insight (-2), up to 3 may aid (DC 15 Dungeoneering, DC 17 Insight, grants +2 to Primary Check) All non-good characters may only help and get -2 to all checks (they can’t see the puzzle) Failure causes the door to vanish for 5 minutes and all within area take 1d10 Lightning Damage, after which the puzzle resets.Success opens the door and the Succeeding character knows which skills are required for each node.
Inner Chamber: A main Eye Chamber with 5 nodes. The nodes are only big enough for 2 characters at a time, so only one character may aid in each. Each node requires a Skill Challenge-
Node 1: DC 15 Acrobatics or Thievery
Node 2: DC 15 Athletics
Node 3: DC 15 Intimidate or Bluff
Node 4: DC 15 Endurance
Node 5: DC 15 Religion, History, or Arcana
Aiding characters in each node must pass a DC 10 Challenge of the appropriate Skill to grant a +2 bonus to the Primary Character’s check. Failure in any node causes 1d8 Lightning Damage to characters in that node and the node must be reset with a DC 10 Arcana check within the Eye Chamber. After 6 failures in any combination of the nodes, a Level 3 Monster appears and the entire puzzle must be reset by a DC 10 Arcana Check in the Main Chamber. Success opens the passageway beneath the Eye, and also reveals the Treasure Bundle:
MI 2, 160gp, 1 HP

Looks good, but do you have any reasons for having these certain checks?  Like do you have to hit a series of buttons rapidly so you need an athletics check or maybe you have to solve some sort of knob turning puzzle so you need an arcana check?  Those are horrible examples, I am just curious if you have done that yet or if they are still in the works? 

That way your characters can role-play based on their skill checks, and maybe it could help with come up with some great way to do something you didn’t think of.  Then you could provide bonuses to their checks for being good puzzle solvers.

And what level are they?  Just curious about how much HP they have because it would stink to die at a puzzle because you kept messing up.  Might be something you want to take into consideration, if they get max damage each time will someone die?  Because that could happen if they have no way to heal or anything like that.

Chad Reynolds - 22 September 2008 08:10 AM

Looks good, but do you have any reasons for having these certain checks?  Like do you have to hit a series of buttons rapidly so you need an athletics check or maybe you have to solve some sort of knob turning puzzle so you need an arcana check?  Those are horrible examples, I am just curious if you have done that yet or if they are still in the works? 

That way your characters can role-play based on their skill checks, and maybe it could help with come up with some great way to do something you didn’t think of.  Then you could provide bonuses to their checks for being good puzzle solvers.

And what level are they?  Just curious about how much HP they have because it would stink to die at a puzzle because you kept messing up.  Might be something you want to take into consideration, if they get max damage each time will someone die?  Because that could happen if they have no way to heal or anything like that.

Thanks Chad!

It’s an adventure for 4 1st level characters. the SC is the fourth encounter and takes place after two hard and one moderate combat encounters, so yes, they may be fairly injured when they arrive.

My concept of the SC is that it was created for two purposes- as a deterrent to keep the wrong people from entering the deeper part of the tombs, and as a testing area for young warriors. Each node consists of a combination of physical components and magical, illusory components. Examples-
Node 1: DC 15 Acrobatics or Thievery consists of a semi-real, semi illusory trap that must be overcome by an acrobatic stunt or by “disabling” the trap with a thievery check
Node 2: DC 15 Athletics consists of a semi-real, semi-illusory physical challenge that must be overcome- a weight that must be lifted or a bar that must be bent.
Node 3: DC 15 Intimidate or Bluff consists of an illusory enemy that must be intimidated or bluffed, a way of testing the young warriors courage and ferocity
Node 4: DC 15 Endurance consists of semi-real, semi-illusory physical challenge that must be overcome- a gas filled chamber, a blast of heat or cold or just pain, something designed to test a young warrior’s toughness.
Node 5: DC 15 Religion, History, or Arcana consists of a semi-real, semi-illusory test of a young warriors knowledge of the supernatural world.

Alright then, it looks like you got everything done.  Looks really good and I can tell you got it all covered.

Make sure you tell us how it goes for the party, I’m curious how they get through this