4th & Dragon : Dungeons and Dragons...and stuff

http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20081006

I called the HELL out of this. Primal striker with defender tendencies. BOOYAH.

On first read-through it looks really freaking OP. Have to test it out, though. I think the low AC is really going to hurt. I think we have our first glass cannon; except the glass cannon has like 400 temporary HP. =D

Anyone else notice this part:

Races: Goliaths are ideal rageblood barbarians. Dragonborn make excellent thaneborn barbarians. Half-orcs are often barbarians but don’t favor either of the two types. Dwarf and shifter barbarians tend to be rageblood barbarians, while halfling and half-elf barbarians choose the thaneborn path.

Goliaths, Half-Orcs and thaneborn-style Barbarians…

It’s a playtest version. They’ve only got one path out. Thaneborn is for the Str/Cha barb, and is going to be sort of a cross between the choppy barbarian and a warlord, from what I understand. Also some more fear powers.

Goliath and Half-orc are coming out in the PHB2 (along with the core version of the barbarian), as per my sig.

I thought we were still unsure as to if Goliath and Half-Orc were absolutes. I guess I’m behind.

Well the barbarian article sort of confirms it. =P They’ve had info for a couple weeks on EnWorld about it, though. They are 100% for sure going into the PHB2.

That confirmation was the point of my quote. As for the barbarian in general, it seems like it would be interesting to see in play, but my PCs are already striker heavy and the first to die will most likely bring in a defender (since they are lacking that role).

Well the hp difference imo is not a big difference. I would have like to see the Defenders have about 8 or 10 per level instead of the 6 which is only 1 more per level than the others.  Not enough difference imo. I know they get better armor and con is more important to them and they also get more healing surges but the should have more hp imo.

Barbarian beats out the other strikers by getting 2 more healing Surges regardless of Con and an extra hit point per level and 3 more at level 1. 

He has a dependancy on Str and Con and if he wants a decent AC he needs Dex.  Dont see much of the need for Charisma in this current build.

A barbarian has a chance to use a maximum of 2d6 or 1d12 damage by using a two handed weapon.  His main damage ability lets him have 2d6+1d6+str mod.  The closest is the Ranger at 1d10x2

A barbarian has a pretty hard hitting Encounter power or one that lets his attack alot of enemies where his damage goes up with the number of targets.  Compared to the rangers ability this is (2d6+mod+1/adjacent enemy)/target vs (1d10+mod)/target.  The other power released is a 3[2d6]+str mod+con mod but your attackers get a +4 bonus to attacks vs you till the start of your next turn.  Compared with the Ranger you can get 2[1d10+str mod] + Wis mod or you can do 2[1d10]+strmod and can shift before or after the attack. 

As a daily we get a Rage benefit and 3[2d6]+str mod.  The rage benefit is either an increase in Speed and shifting or a bonus to damage if you or your target is bloodied equal to your con mod.  The speed increase and shifting increase tries to make up for the lack of mobility options compared to the Ranger or warloc and the damage one is too help with the lack of additional damage per round from the quarry, sneak attack, or curse.  the Ranger daily power that is closest does
2[1d10]+str + 1d10 and leave the target weakened if the second attack hits.  You get to shift 1 sq during the attack. the other abilities have 2[1d10]+mod x2 or 2[1d10]+mod per target(max of two) or 2[1d10]+str +ongoing 5 + slowed

Rogue doesn’t compare as much as the weapon choice is very low and keeps damage to about 1d6 but they have alot of benefits.

warloc has a static non weapon damage set up that is about 3d10 at the max and 1d6 at the lowest. 

Ranger is the best comparison by abilities alone.

Barbarian lacks mobility that the Ranger and Feyloc have easy access too.  Barbarian gets Temp hit points like a helloc has. The Helloc starts to surpass the number of temporary hit points unless you can keep the Con maxed out and even then at about 6th level you get surpassed.  The benefit is that your Barbarian doesn’t have to designate a target before hand and can swoop in and steal a kill to get the benefits.

The Rogue gets a 2d6 a round if it can get Combat advantage.  a ranger can pick a target to apply a 1d6 damage as a minor action and as long as he does damage to the target of his quarry.  The Warloc curses people and can have a huge pool of cursed enemies.  If it does damage to a cursed target he can add 1d6.

Ranger has a lot of shifting abilities built into powers. Warloc has some powers that allow it to move or to move its targets.  Rogue does alot to slow people down or take away thier actions while allowing them to maintain combat advantage.

Barbarian lacks a lot shifting powers.  It can Charge an enemy when it reduces a person to 0hit points. It then gets to use a power that does more damage.  It also if raging gets to ignore OA’s.  Where the other classe are good at movement in general, the barbarian is good at closing with enemies. 

The other classes get a if it hits then we get to add damage.  1 is confined to combat advantage, the other two have had to designate a target first, and the Barbarian has to crit on an attack roll.  if the barbarian is using a 2d6 weapon he would then get to make another attack for 2d6+str mod.  So first he has to crit then he has succeed at another attack roll to get his damage.  Not over powered, but possibly a little underpowered.

The Barbarian gains extra damage if it attacks a Bloodied target or the Barbarian is bloodied if it uses the daily power that grants this type of rage. 

A Barbarian’s extra damage is very conditional.  It gains temp hitpoints but since they don’t stack there isn’t an overpoweredness about it.  It stays down to about 5 at heroic.  The thing that makes these better than Locs is that barbarians potentially can refresh these as many times as there are opponents.  A helloc would do fine like this but he most move to get close to curse so it takes a bit more effort on his part.

A Barbarian’s daily powers all provide a rage benefit.  if you use a daily it applies the new rage benefit over your other rage benefit.  Since they are daily you must put up an extended rest to get them back.  They gave you a power that if you wanted to use a daily for the damage potential but wanted to keep you current rage benefit you get to expend the power and do damage based on its level through the power Rage Strike. 

Rage Strike is pretty weak for 1st level till about lvl 5 when you gain a second daily and another rage option.  If you like your level 5 rage benefit you can expend your lvl1 and get 3[W]+ str mod which is just the damage of a 1st level daily.

Barbarian seems to suffer from the fact that you would want to use yoru daily early on in an encounter to better benefit from your rage benefit.  With Rage strike you have an option to use a daily like other characters can but you don’t have to worry about overwriting a benefit. 

A barbarian will also want to use its daily almost every encounter.  Then it will want to immediately take an extended rest.  Maybe they should retry this or you could potentially be back at the Wizard is out of spells lets rest cycle they want to break.

It has more hitpoints and 1 better Armor than the other strikers.  Unfortunately Ranger and Rogue both have a nice reliance on Dex.  Warlocs like Int.  Now with Ranger and Rogue these can potentially be the number 1 stat(rogue especially).  Warloc’s tend to take int as a secondary stat so they will have a decent ac.  A barbarian needs a great str score and a good Con score.  The class tells us we need charisma but Dex appears to be more useful so far.

Barbarian also has the least amount of trained skills out of the four strikers.  1 less than Warloc, coming in with 3 total. 

Barbarian appears to be Balanced but yet more on the underpowered side.  With a good stat set up and decent 2 handed weapon the barbarian can do some massive hits.  Rogue and it will suffer from the 1 attack roll for the sum total of damage vs a Ranger usually have 2 attack rolls for the potential of at least 1 hitting.

So in all my ramblings without actually playtesting it I am going with Barbarian does very little for the Defending role and lacks the unconditional mobility of a Striker along with easy access to additonal damage.  Not over powered but a little underpowered.

Talae - 06 October 2008 09:34 AM

I thought we were still unsure as to if Goliath and Half-Orc were absolutes. I guess I’m behind.

I think you are correct that this is the first Confirmed report of Goliath and Half-orc other than the Goliath artwork on the PHB2.  I see they are also going to include Shifter in Eberron like they did Drow for FR.

Playtest Druid next please followed by Monk. 

The Thaneborn barbarian is probably going to have the charisma based abilities as there aren’t many if any(haven’t checked all the powers) that have Charisma in them.

Looks like the next PHB is going to include at least a few new races and classes for us

But this barbarian looks like a pretty sweet class to me, a new way to play a striker And I’m with Frost, I want to see the Druid and Monk come along too

Chad Reynolds - 06 October 2008 02:02 PM

Looks like the next PHB is going to include at least a few new races and classes for us

But this barbarian looks like a pretty sweet class to me, a new way to play a striker And I’m with Frost, I want to see the Druid and Monk come along too

I think there are supposed to be 8 races and 11 classes or 8 and 8 something like that.

Barbarian, Druid, Sorceror are confirmed

Gnome, Goliath, half-orc are supposed to be there too

I am sure Talae has the list of letters of the classes and races to be included.

edit; i was right

Talae - 26 June 2008 01:25 PM

I was under the impression that Druids and Barbarians will have the Primal power source. The teaser stuff is:
Races: first letters Gn, second letters o, e, and h, and one has the last letter of r.

Classes: First letters D, R, B, W, I, T, S, S
“Only three or so are familiar, others are all new to D&D.”

from this thread

So with races we know Gnome, Goliath.
Classes: Druid, Barbarian, Sorceror

Don’t see half-orc but we will be seeing one eventually as the barbarian class mentions one. As we only have 5 races listed and i thought they were going ot have at least 8, halforc could still be in phb2.

FrostNumenor - 06 October 2008 10:17 AM

He has a dependancy on Str and Con and if he wants a decent AC he needs Dex.  Dont see much of the need for Charisma in this current build.

Or, he just uses his huge Str and Con to buy heavy armor. Charisma does nothing until they release the other build, which I imagine contains all the Cha-based goodness (such as screaming like a madman or screaming like a madman).

Ranger is the best comparison by abilities alone.

That’s stretching it. Doing some math in one thread doesn’t really do it for me.

Barbarian lacks mobility that the Ranger and Feyloc have easy access too.

Barbarians can shift 2 squares (through enemies!!) with one of their at-will powers, and they can also charge screaming across the battlefield as a free action just because they dropped someone to 0 HP. That’s pretty freaking mobile if you asked me.

Barbarian lacks a lot shifting powers.

Aside from his ability to shift through enemies at will and not provoke opportunity attacks on a charge (also at will), you are correct.

A Barbarian’s extra damage is very conditional.

Eh...yes and no. It pretty much boils down to “if you’re raging, you get extra damage”. So I don’t know if I’d call it “very conditional”. They also get a 3[w] encounter attack at level one (although it does make them highly vulnerable).  Barbarians deal ridiculous amounts of damage.

The class tells us we need charisma but Dex appears to be more useful so far.

Until we take 2 feats and bump our AC up 4 points. Again, Cha is for powers that are not released yet.

Barbarian also has the least amount of trained skills out of the four strikers.  1 less than Warloc, coming in with 3 total.

They also deal the most damage...I thought 4e was supposed to be all about “we’re no longer balancing in-combat effectiveness with out-of-combat sucking and vice versa”?

Barbarian appears to be Balanced but yet more on the underpowered side.

I actually laughed when I read that. I’ve got a guy that can push through the toughest front line of enemies at will, smack all of them for a handful of dice, then burn an AP and charge with impunity toward the BBEG and then hit him for why are you picking up all of your dice!? damage, and someone calls it underpowered?

So I’m working on this new class…

Barbarian does very little for the Defending role

Since he’s not a defender, that’s kind of a Good Thing. =)

and lacks the unconditional mobility of a Striker along with easy access to additonal damage.

...what? Barbarians have stupid amounts of mobility. They’ve got a 2-square at will shift with a 1W + 1d6 + Str attack while raging (which also pushes the enemy!), They’ve got an encounter that lets them charge without provoking AO’s, and they’ve got a daily that lets them shift 2 as a move action. No, they can’t teleport 6 squares, but they are absolutely “unconditionally mobile”.

They also deal ridiculous amounts of damage even before they start raging. I mean we are talking about the only class that has a 3W + Str encounter power at level 1…

I had a huge post then decided that it would be childish to stoop to your levels of mockery, No Int.

To get the charge the barbarian has to personally reduce the hitpoint total.  The feyloc just has had to have a curse on the creature that is reduced. Any player can reduce it to zero hit points and the fey loc benefits.

A charge can only work if you can move to an adjacent square that is the shortest path to you.  The charge is a direct move(straight) to the closest square.  If this square is occupied you can’t do the charge. If you move through difficult terrain your movement is charged the same.  You can only move your speed.

Alot of conditions must be met to charge.  If you want to move through OAs without taking any you better have Used your Daily already. 

A barbarian can shift the two squares and even through an enemy’s space.  All players can move into an enemy’s space but they take an OA.

Barbarian gets a free Basic Attack if they crit.  RAngers and Warlocs must have someone “designated” to be able to apply damage.  Rogue has to have combat advantage.  Barbarian has to also hit with his basic attack to get the damage.  So if he crits and then misses with the basic attack he is out the extra.  If a rogue range or warloc hit someone that meets thier criteria then they get to apply the damage free of charge.  Rogue has numerous ways to ensure combat advantage, as a minor action a Ranger can change his quarry to the one he is about to hit, and a warloc just has to get closer to curse target than any other enemy to put the curse on it(they cna have multiple cursed targets).

A barbarian can shift twice as a move action if they spend the right daily. They also get to move an extra two squares each move action since thier speed is increased.  This daily is needed to trigger other class power help be it damage, temp hp or movement.

Barbarians then suffer from blowing thier wad early or making sure they can predict the future with when they blow thier daily.  They then lock out the rage benefit of other dailies if they really want extra movement. 

They have a power that does 3[2d6]+str mod and con mod if they want thier attackers to have a +4 chance to hit them.  This is soo much better than lets look(won’t limit it to just Ranger this time):

Warloc: 2d8+Con and Sliding target 2 Squares(more if you are infernal), 2d8+Cha and the target takes a -1penalty to Will(more if star), 2d8+con and 5 temp hp(more if Infernal), 2d6+Cha and a -2penalty to attack rolls(more if fey). and an extra 1d6 if it is cursed

Rogue: 2[1d6]+dex (+str mod if brutal), 1d6+dex Slide it 1 square(more if Artful dodger), 2[1d6]+dex and you switch places with a willing ally, 1d6+dex and you daze the target.  Of course if they have CA and extra 2d6 damage

Ranger: (1[1d10]+str)x2(wis mod dmg if both hit), If an enemy attacks you( shift 1 square and make a Melee Basic attack( 1d10+str) with a +wisdom mod to the attack roll) reaction not on your turn, Shift 1+wis mod squares before or after the attack(2[1d10]+str), plus 1d8 if you quarried it before you attacked.

Lets see so with 18in the primary stat Ranger has 14x2 28+wis modifier(but you get two chances to hit), or 24 and you get to shift at least 1 square, Add the extra 8 to any of those and you have 36+wis and 32 with shifting.  Barbarian has 36+4 equals 40 and if he wants 40+con mod but everybody that attacks him before his next turn get a +4 to the attack.

Rogue and WArloc do less damage but they usually target other abilities beside AC.  Since Ranger does the most damage and is usually vs AC I figured it would be safe to compare number 1 damage to number 2 damage though it is close to Rogue with a rogue doing 12+12(if CA)+4 equally 28.

I’ve said it a hundred times: I don’t thinly veil my insults. I wasn’t trying to be mocking, I just have an aggressive posting style. Plus I’ve been hanging out at RPG.net lately and that’s a rough crowd. I’m sorry if I offended.

Seriously though, this is turning into a nitpick. But even in your example where you’re trying to show that the ranger is better, the barbarian is still dealing more damage in spite of you shafting him 3-4 points of damage. You’re also giving maximum damage figures; that implies a crit. Barbarians get free attacks when they crit, adding even more damage.

The ranger is almost as likely to miss with one attack as he is to hit with it based on the AC. So your raw damage is looking more like 1d10+1d8+4, average of 14, or 6-22 damage . It’ll change based on the AC of your opponent and whether you manage to score a hit twice in one round, miss twice, etc.

Barbie’s looking more like 6d6 + 8, average of 31(!!!), or 14-44 damage round to round. Also keep in mind your ranger got to apply the use of a feat, which Barbie did not get.

So your analysis is sort of correct, although I don’t think it says what you want it to say. A ranger that manages to hit the same enemy (who happens to be your quarry) twice with the same attack in the same round while including the use of a (great) feat can deal less damage than the barbarian who only needs to hit once, but gets a penalty for making the attack. Sounds pretty good to me. It is, in fact, “sooo much better”, because the only reason it’s even remotely balanced is because everyone gets a +4 bonus to smack you in the skull.

But I bet nobody thought of this yet: if you want your barbarian to be a defender, with tons and tons of HP, temp HP, and AC from your (easily obtainable) heavy armor feats, then guess what? That +4 bonus to hit you? That is an AREA EFFECT MARKING MECHANIC. You just told every bad guy in the fight to stop what they’re doing and bum rush you. That is exactly what you want them to do. That is a bonus to your character concept (although much more dangerous than the way a fighter or paladin does it; and why not? that’s how the barbarian rolls).

Also:

You normally can’t move through an enemy’s
space unless that enemy is helpless or two size
categories larger or smaller than you.

So, no, you can’t actually enter enemy spaces unless they are very large or very small. Thus making the barbarian’s shift style completely awesome once more.

Oh yeah, the charge thing. Ok, you need a straight line. That’s about all you need. You can charge anyone you want, not just the closest enemy. And just FYI, if you’re an orc with the feat that lets you get +2 move on a charge, you’re looking at TEN SQUARES of blendery goodness.

Ok your damage calculation is wrong or I am missing something.  You did 6d6+4 str.  I am not saying the ranger is better at damage. I dont’ think I ever said the ranger beat the barbarian for damage. I did however say that ranger is the best comparison for barbarian damage.  I did accidently bump the ranger up to 1d8. I used maximums but you don’t have to crit to get maximum damage If we did go with crits then weapon choice becomes even more of issue.

Barbarian can do the most single target damage of the strikers, but what i was showing is that a Ranger has way more mobility than the barbarian for a little less damage trade off.  Statisically the two seperate attacks have a better chance for at least 1 success than the the 1 attack the barbarian has.  I didn’t add in other mods. because i didn’t want to assume the extras.  I could have used minimums but that wouldn’t have the barbarian looking that great.  If we go with straight averages the Barbarian still outshines but not by much and differences goes down. 

ACtually you do have to charge an Enemy:
You must move at least
2 squares from your starting position, and you must
move directly to the nearest square from which you
can attack the enemy. You can’t charge if the nearest
square is occupied. Moving over difficult terrain
costs extra squares of movement as normal.

So you can’t just charge anybody. A charge that you have to personally kill the guy isn’t on par with a Warloc who can have numerous cursed enemies and gets a benefit for each can teleport each time one is reduced to 0 hit points by anybody or any reason and isn’t limited to direction and also does a few other things.

It does more damage than ranger but barely, it doesn’t have the mobility of the ranger nor the warloc. It doesn’t impose the state changing effects that a rogue does. It has no ranged abilities.  Its temporary hit points gets outshined by warloc.  It has more hp than the other strikers and then only marginally.  It gains one more proficiency in Armor.  It needs to spend a feat to get its ac up enough to be on par with the other strikers.  It has to use its daily early on or lack any rage benefits.  If it gives up any real daily benefits to gain a semi class feature.

I don’t think it is on par with the rest of the strikers. Sure if it crits, if reduces the person to zero, if it has spent the right daily, if it is near an enemy that he can charge, if that square isn’t occupied he can totally do a crap load of damage.  As is he is too reliants on ifs and seems to suffer from 1 extended rest per encounter to be truely effective.

FrostNumenor - 06 October 2008 09:49 PM

Ok your damage calculation is wrong or I am missing something.  You did 6d6+4 str.  I am not saying the ranger is better at damage. I dont’ think I ever said the ranger beat the barbarian for damage. I did however say that ranger is the best comparison for barbarian damage.  I did accidently bump the ranger up to 1d8. I used maximums but you don’t have to crit to get maximum damage If we did go with crits then weapon choice becomes even more of issue.

3[W] with a 2d6 weapon (maul) is 6d6. You get +4 for Str, and probably another +3 for Con. 6d6 + 7 = dead.

Barbarian can do the most single target damage of the strikers, but what i was showing is that a Ranger has way more mobility than the barbarian for a little less damage trade off.  Statisically the two seperate attacks have a better chance for at least 1 success than the the 1 attack the barbarian has.  I didn’t add in other mods. because i didn’t want to assume the extras.  I could have used minimums but that wouldn’t have the barbarian looking that great.  If we go with straight averages the Barbarian still outshines but not by much and differences goes down. 

Actually that’s not fully accurate, because in this specific attack, Barbie is charging and thus gets an additional +1 to hit. So he’s hitting more. As to the mobility...rangers are simply not more mobile. They are just differently mobile. Also don’t forget that we are looking at a beta test incomplete version. It doesn’t have the breadth of powers that our existing classes have.

Moving into a nonhelpless enemy’s space
provokes an opportunity attack from that enemy,
because you left a square adjacent to the enemy.
(Some powers let you move through an enemy’s
square without provoking an opportunity attack.)

Technically it doesn’t say the barbarian doesn’t provoke an attack of oppurtunity just that you can move through it. So I mean errata will be showing up for clarification.

No errata necessary. Shifting never provokes an OA, unless you’re talking about fighters and their marked targets. Barbarians shift through enemies without provoking OA’s.

So you can’t just charge anybody. A charge that you have to personally kill the guy isn’t on par with a Warloc who can have numerous cursed enemies and gets a benefit for each can teleport each time one is reduced to 0 hit points by anybody or any reason and isn’t limited to direction and also does a few other things.

Yes, you can just charge anybody. You drop someone, then you get to charge anyone you want as long as they are more than 2 squares away from you and you have your clear path to the nearest square. 3rd was the edition where you could only charge the closest enemy.

It does more damage than ranger but barely, it doesn’t have the mobility of the ranger nor the warloc. It doesn’t impose the state changing effects that a rogue does. It has no ranged abilities.  Its temporary hit points gets outshined by warloc.  It has more hp than the other strikers and then only marginally.  It gains one more proficiency in Armor.  It needs to spend a feat to get its ac up enough to be on par with the other strikers.  It has to use its daily early on or lack any rage benefits.  If it gives up any real daily benefits to gain a semi class feature.

Sigh. I sorta illustrated how it isn’t “barely” more than the ranger. It’s actually gads more. Even if the ranger hits with both attacks, and has massive Dex and Wis scores, it’s still not as much damage as the barbarian. It falls like 10 points short. The temp HP is just icing, and it can be tricked out, and bet your bippy that there will be feats to enhance it. You act like it’s a bad thing that barbarians want to use their daily early. That leaves the entire rest of the party to use their dailies later.

I don’t think it is on par with the rest of the strikers. Sure if it crits, if reduces the person to zero, if it has spent the right daily, if it is near an enemy that he can charge, if that square isn’t occupied he can totally do a crap load of damage.  As is he is too reliants on ifs and seems to suffer from 1 extended rest per encounter to be truely effective.

Well, I think you’re seriously overestimating the strength of the other strikers if you think this class can’t hold a candle. I can come back and tell you for sure in a week or two after I smash an army apart with it. As far as I can recall, it’s the only melee class with a level 1 encounter area attack, and a level 1 encounter that does 3W damage. That is unprecedented, because it is so awesome. They get better toys, but more drawbacks. The barbarian is not underpowered. If anything, it’s overpowered. Take a look at the level 20 paragon path feature and tell me with a straight face that they’ll include that in the final draft. It’s visibly worse than blade cascade, and that had to be out for a good 4 days before someone discovered what you could do with that.

Anyway, if you think the barbarian is underpowered, stop telling me things that aren’t accurate (that the ranger deals almost as much damage) and go playtest the class. Tell us what you find out, I’ll be doing the same.

Well you are wrong as the Ranger also has a Close Burst 1 just like the Barbarian.  The Ranger doesn’t have a 3W but does have a 2w and mobility or a 2w with two attacks.

Rangers are more mobile in combat they have alot more Standard Action abilities that allow shifting.

You quote something I took out because i realized they said shifting and shifting doesn’t provoke, but yet you don’t quote the one part from Charge that tells you that you have to charge and Enemy.  You have to charge an Enemy as per the rules.  So sure if you wanna charge you buddy, you call him an enemy and whack him with that basic attack.

Barbarian can do damage, he lacks open mobility.  He will do well in close combat fights with lots of enemies.  A warloc will do better with a little more ranged room.

I guess i am going to do some full on combat play tests with the barbarian and the warloc and the ranger and the rogue and them with a party.

Barbarian is a little weak right now. When we get at least the other halves powers we might see some more of the weaknesses addressed.  You will lose that charge ability with the other build and since you think so highly of the charge the other build should have something pretty decent.

I like the barbarian, I am not saying it is the worst class, but I am saying that it appears a little lacking when compared with other strikers. With the right feats it might be able to make up for some things, but you shouldn’t have to make up the differences between the roles with feats.