4th & Dragon : Dungeons and Dragons...and stuff

So as I mentioned in another thread, I’m working on making my own dungeon crawling game to both introduce my four-year-old daughter to gaming and to help teach some math and reading skills to her.  I’ll be posting my initial rules builds and graphic design ideas here.  The rules are pretty close to the old Dungeon! game, which I didn’t realize until I had finished writing out my basic ideas.  Anyway, below is a sample card idea just to give an idea.  I’m looking for free and public domain art, but I haven’t found a whole lot yet, so I’m just using a picture I found on the internet for a placeholder.

Oh yeah, and the name could use some work.

And thanks to Jacob Lewis for a working title.  DungeonLand! is a much better title.

The basic idea is to incorporate very basic math equations for things like attack, defense, damage, and treasure.  I’ll also be peppering cards with words to help teach reading (like the red “help”, which I now see needs to be a little more obvious) and writing.  In order to attack, I’m going to make her find the red word and try to sound it out, and then practice writing by copying the word into a journal of sorts.

It’s going to be all d6 based, and randomized modular dungeons that are also built through d6 randomization.  I’m attempting to tailor it a little more widely than just for my daughter, as I intend to have it be compatible with four or five players, and to actually have it be a dungeon crawl to earn the most treasure.

I think you might be on to something really neat here, Cam. As for a working title, how about “Dungeonland”? (Kind of a play on “Candyland”. Too much?)

Jacob Lewis - 03 July 2009 05:06 PM

I think you might be on to something really neat here, Cam. As for a working title, how about “Dungeonland”? (Kind of a play on “Candyland”. Too much?)

Thanks.  And at least as a working title, that’s a lot better than what I thought of.

Alright, first piece of the game instructions.  This has been rattling around in my head for a bit, but I just finished writing this part.  The details for Attack, Defense, and Damage will be on the Character Cards.  I attempted to make all six adventurer types desirable and gave “best in” to two adventurers from each sex.  There are 3 female adventurers and 3 male adventurers.  Feedback is much appreciated, as this is still in very early-stage development (as in, partly written in my notebook, but mostly rattling in my head).

DungeonLand! A game for young adventurers

2-6 players (at least one adult to be Dungeon Planner)

(INSERT TEXT ABOUT LENGTH OF GAMEPLAY - after playtesting)

OBJECT OF THE GAME
To fight monsters and collect treasure, all while learning basic math, reading, and writing, but in a fun new way.  The first adventurer to collect 10 treasure tokens wins.

CHOOSING AN ADVENTURER
In this game you may choose to be a Princess, Amazon, Valkyrie, Elf, Knight, or Wizard. There are enough counters included that everyone could all play the same character type if they wanted to.
Read the descriptions below before deciding which type of adventurer you want to be. After choosing
one, place the counter on the Start Tile.

PRINCESSES: A Princess is smart and has the strongest magic in the game, but is slow to move and has no melee combat ability. She gets hurt easily because she doesn’t go exploring much, and always fights from far away. Each Princess is equipped with a special magic wand given to her by her Fairy Godmother. If a Princess finds herself in a close fight, she always tries to back up so that she can use her wand.

AMAZONS: An Amazon is extremely quick, but only average in melee and ranged combat. She doesn’t get hurt as easily as the Princess because she is fast, but still prefers to fight monsters from far away. Each Amazon is equipped with a bow and arrow as well as a short sword, and she spent many years training in an Amazon school to learn how to use them. If an Amazon finds herself in a close fight, she can use her short sword.

VALKYRIE: A Valkyrie is the strongest adventurer in the game, is average in speed, but has no ranged combat ability. She doesn’t get hurt easily because she goes exploring a lot, and always fights close in. Each Valkyrie is equipped with a great axe that she made herself and spent many years practicing with. If a Valkyrie finds herself in a ranged fight, she will run as fast as she can to get close to the monster so that she can whack it with her axe.

ELVES: An Elf is the fastest adventurer in the game, average in ranged combat and average in melee combat.  He gets hurt easily because he doesn’t wear any armor, and usually fights from far away.  Each Elf is equipped with a bow and arrow as well as a club, all of which he made himself from trees he planted as a young boy. If an Elf finds himself in a close fight, he can use his club, but he tries to back up so he can use his bow and arrow.

KNIGHTS: A Knight is the toughest adventurer in the game, is slow in speed, but has not ranged combat ability.  He doesn’t get hurt easily because he wears a lot of armor, and trains to fight all the time.  Each Knight is equipped with a longsword and a shield, and spent many years as a squire before he earned his title of Knight in a tournament. If a Knight finds himself in a ranged fight, he will run as fast as he can to get close to a monster.

WIZARDS: A Wizard is smart and very strong with magic, is average in speed, and has no melee combat ability.  He gets hurt because he does go adventuring much, and always fights from far away. Each Wizard is equipped with a spellbook that he made after studying for many years in a magic school.  If a Wizard finds himself in a melee fight, he always tries to back up so that he can cast a spell on the monster.

COMPLETE FIRST DRAFT

DungeonLand! A game for young adventurers

2-6 players (at least one adult to be Dungeon Planner)

(INSERT TEXT ABOUT LENGTH OF GAMEPLAY—after playtesting)

OBJECT OF THE GAME
To fight monsters and collect treasure, all while learning basic math, reading, and writing, but in a fun new way.  The first adventurer to collect 10 treasure tokens wins.

CHOOSING AN ADVENTURER
In this game you may choose to be a Princess, Amazon, Valkyrie, Elf, Knight, or Wizard. There are enough counters included that everyone could all play the same character type if they wanted to.
Read the descriptions below before deciding which type of adventurer you want to be. After choosing
one, place the counter on the Start Tile.

PRINCESSES: A Princess is smart and has the strongest magic in the game, but is slow to move and has no melee combat ability. She gets hurt easily because she doesn’t go exploring much, and always fights from far away. Each Princess is equipped with a special magic wand given to her by her Fairy Godmother. If a Princess finds herself in a close fight, she always tries to back up so that she can use her wand.

AMAZONS: An Amazon is extremely quick, but only average in melee and ranged combat. She doesn’t get hurt as easily as the Princess because she is fast, but still prefers to fight monsters from far away. Each Amazon is equipped with a bow and arrow as well as a short sword, and she spent many years training in an Amazon school to learn how to use them. If an Amazon finds herself in a close fight, she can use her short sword.

VALKYRIE: A Valkyrie is the strongest adventurer in the game, is average in speed, but has no ranged combat ability. She doesn’t get hurt easily because she goes exploring a lot, and always fights close in. Each Valkyrie is equipped with a great axe that she made herself and spent many years practicing with. If a Valkyrie finds herself in a ranged fight, she will run as fast as she can to get close to the monster so that she can whack it with her axe.

ELVES: An Elf is the fastest adventurer in the game, average in ranged combat and average in melee combat.  He gets hurt easily because he doesn’t wear any armor, and usually fights from far away.  Each Elf is equipped with a bow and arrow as well as a club, all of which he made himself from trees he planted as a young boy. If an Elf finds himself in a close fight, he can use his club, but he tries to back up so he can use his bow and arrow.

KNIGHTS: A Knight is the toughest adventurer in the game, is slow in speed, but has not ranged combat ability.  He doesn’t get hurt easily because he wears a lot of armor, and trains to fight all the time.  Each Knight is equipped with a longsword and a shield, and spent many years as a squire before he earned his title of Knight in a tournament. If a Knight finds himself in a ranged fight, he will run as fast as he can to get close to a monster.

WIZARDS: A Wizard is smart and very strong with magic, is average in speed, and has no melee combat ability.  He gets hurt because he does go adventuring much, and always fights from far away. Each Wizard is equipped with a spellbook that he made after studying for many years in a magic school.  If a Wizard finds himself in a melee fight, he always tries to back up so that he can cast a spell on the monster.

GAMEPLAY
1.The Dungeon Planner controls the Dungeon Tiles.  He can decide how he wants to do this, but it is recommended that he not leave it up to chance.
2.As an adventurer moves off of one tile to another, the Dungeon Planner will place the next tile down in place. If the Dungeon Planner runs out of tiles to use, he may recycle unused tiles from the current Dungeon.

MOVEMENT
1.Each player rolls one die.  The player with the highest roll goes first and play moves around to the left in a clockwise fashion.
2.On an adventurer’s turn, she may move up to the movement number on her Character Card. The dice are not used to determine movement.
3.Each square on a tile counts as one space when moving.
4.An adventurer can pass over other adventurers, but cannot land on the same space as another adventurer except at the Start or End of the dungeon.
5.When a room is entered for the first time, that adventurer will have to fight the monster who lives there (see COMBAT).

COMBAT
1.When an adventurer opens a room for the first time, he must draw a Monster Card from the Monster Card Pile. That card must be flipped over so all the other adventurers can read it.
2.An adventurer can fight the monster in the room or run away. If the adventurer runs away, place that Monster Card at the bottom of the Monster Card Pile.
3.On each monster card is a word in red. The adventurer who is fighting that monster will try to sound out the word, practicing his reading skills. Other adventurers or the Dungeon Planner can help him if he is struggling.
4.After sounding out the word in red, an adventurer will write that word in his notebook, practicing his writing skills.
5.Once an adventurer has completed steps 3 and 4, he may now attack the monster. If the adventurer is a Princess, Amazon, Elf, or Wizard he can attack from far away.  If the adventurer is a Valkyrie or Knight, he must move close to the monster first.
6.Once an adventurer is able to attack the Monster, he rolls one die and looks at his Character Card for the Attack entry. This will be a simple mathematical equation. He solves the equation and then adds his Attack to the number on the die, practicing his math and determining his total Attack score.  He will write this number in his notebook, practicing his writing skills.
7.An adventurer will next look at the Monster’s Defense score and solve the equation he finds there. He will write this number in his notebook next to his Attack score. If his Attack score is more than the Monster’s Defense score, the adventurer hits the Monster who gains a Damage Token.
8.An adventurer will solves the equation in the Monster’s Damage score and write that number in his notebook.  When the Monster gains that many Damage Tokens, he will run away, leaving his treasure behind.
9.Now it is the Monster’s turn.* The Dungeon Planner will follow the same rules as the adventurer to determine the Monster’s total Attack score, the adventurer’s Defense score, the adventurer’s Damage score, and whether or not the Monster hits the adventurer. If an adventurer gains Damage Tokens equal to his damage score, he will run away.
10.Once a Monster has been defeated by an adventurer, the room the Monster lived in will be considered empty for that adventurer.
11.If an adventurer enters a room where a fight is taking place, he may choose to help fight that monster, or move to a different room.

* A variant rule would allow the adventurer himself to roll for the Monster and would not involve the Dungeon Planner at all.

TREASURE
1.If an adventurer runs away, she leaves one Treasure Token behind. This Treasure Token is considered lost and placed back in the Treasure Token bag.
2.After a Monster runs away, the adventurer who first started fighting looks at the Monster Card and solves the equation for Treasure. That’s how many Treasure Tokens she earns. Place the Monster Card at the bottom of the Monster Pile.
3.If more than one adventurer fight the same Monster, they will split the Treasure Tokens evenly. If there is an odd number of Treasure Tokens, the adventurer who started the fight earns the extra token.
4.The first adventurer to earn 10 Treasure Tokens wins!
5.Game play can be lengthened or shortened by a simple matter of changing the number of Treasure Tokens needed to win.

As a final note—this game can be easily modified to account for growing learners by increasing the complexity of the math equations.

The Nasty Troll - and - Princess Eleanora

PS - it’s the number-crunching side of this, balance-wise, that I’m going to need the most help on.  That, and help finding innocuous free images to use for cards.  The last two are both free clip-art for any use, commercial or personal.  Although, if I did decide to move this commercially, I’d probably just pay an artist. I figure I’d need 40 individual pieces, 61 pieces, but many could just be color mods (like 6 Princesses, but just different color dresses and races).

Just a tentative Inventory list as a starting point--
Inventory List for DungeonLand! (Version 0.1)

1 Rulebook
24 Dungeon Tiles
6 6-sided dice

36 Character Counters
6 Princesses
6 Amazons
6 Valkyries
6 Elves
6 Knights
6 Wizards

36 Character Cards (Names to follow)
6 Princesses
6 Amazons
6 Valkyries
6 Elves
6 Knights
6 Wizards

25 Monster Cards
(Names and numbers to follow)

70 Treasure Tokens

10 Blank cards

Wow Cameron this is some great stuff! Keep us updated (as you usually do) on where this is at. I like what I see.

Dammit, Cameron! This actually pulling me away from my campaign stuff, but I love doing this kind of stuff. I’ll just throw a few quick thoughts at you and then leave, shaking my fist at you as I do.

“Valkyrie” seems like a really advanced word to be put into a game like this. I realize you’re trying to make it even for boys and girls, but perhaps you should consider more genderless roles and provide both male and female characters for each. So you might have something like Thief, Mage, Warrior, Elf, Dwarf, and Hobbit for the starter set with both male and female versions available for each class. (I know it puts a damper on the princess idea, but I’m sure you can incorporate that somehow into the game… maybe that could be one of the goals; finding the princess. Bear with me, I’m spit-balling here.)

Since you’re already using the dice in play to generate random numbers, I don’t think it’s necessary to create actual “flash card"-style equations to make this work. I’ll explain this using the character cards.

Each character basically has four attributes: Attack, Defense, Damage, and Move. Instead of printing unique cards with different equations that only needs to be solved once during the game, just use a value for the second part of the equation with the dice roll. For example, a character with a strong attack might have a +3. When the player attacks a creature, he rolls the d6 and adds the value of his attack, which in this case is 3. You can express this on the card with a “<die symbol> + 3 = ?”, or whatever works for you.

This would also allow you to create stronger character cards that increase the values being used to represent higher skill level of the players. So a beginning character for beginning players might have a set of scores like +2, +1, +0, and -1. Stronger characters would be for more skilled players and use higher values, like +4, +2, +1, and -2. Of course, they would fight tougher monsters who have higher values (and maybe more treasures!) to keep the game progressing. Always gotta keep thinking forward!

You’ll notice I introduced Move as a variable instead of a fixed number for each character, too. Players roll for how many moves they get and add their Move value to the roll. It still favors the “faster” characters that have a higher bonus, but it’s no longer a given.

That’s all I got for now.

Cameron, the only quick thought I have right now is try to design it so play is fairly quick. Maybe around an hour or so. Since this is designed for younger kids keep the attention span in mind. I am sure you are already considering this point, but I have seen many good childrens games that suck because the kids are ready to move on to something else before you are anywhere near done. It goes without saying, but I will say it young kids=shorter attention spans.

To this end in playtest you will get an idea of how long it will take to get 10 treasure tokens. So if during playtest, let’s say it takes 1 hour to get the ten, 5 would take maybe 30 minutes.After the playtest reuslts you could provide in the rules approximate play times for certain levels of tokens needed to win. That way play time could be adjusted to the players likes and or needs by changing the amount of treasure needed.

Okay so now for the images! Hmmm.....

Jacob Lewis - 04 July 2009 08:02 AM

Dammit, Cameron! This actually pulling me away from my campaign stuff, but I love doing this kind of stuff. I’ll just throw a few quick thoughts at you and then leave, shaking my fist at you as I do.

Sorry.  I just had a burst of inspiration this week.  Being cooped up inside an apartment with a four-year-old and an infant as it rains all week will give any parent the need to find something else to do besides the same-old movies.

“Valkyrie" seems like a really advanced word to be put into a game like this.

I’m open to other names.  I wracked my brain over this name for awhile and this was the best I could come up with to capture the feeling of a giant-sword wielding warrior girl.

So you might have something like Thief, Mage, Warrior, Elf, Dwarf, and Hobbit for the starter set with both male and female versions available for each class. (I know it puts a damper on the princess idea, but I’m sure you can incorporate that somehow into the game… maybe that could be one of the goals; finding the princess. Bear with me, I’m spit-balling here.) I realize you’re trying to make it even for boys and girls, but perhaps you should consider more genderless roles and provide both male and female characters for each.

I did consider that, but I rejected it after my pencil and paper rough.  I thought about my daughter and other kids I know, and despite the modern habit of being gender role neutrality, kids seem to fall into gender roles. I wanted the roles to be definably based on sex, but in a positive manner.  I didn’t want a “rescue the princess” kind of game because that does more to gender stereotype than anything else.

Since you’re already using the dice in play to generate random numbers, I don’t think it’s necessary to create actual “flash card"-style equations to make this work. I’ll explain this using the character cards.

zachol mentioned this on ORP, so I guess it’s a fair criticism.  Roll a die and add a number seems just a tad too close to a regular RPG game.  As I also mentioned at ORP, repetition of the same equation (1 + 1 = 2) helps. But I’m open to other mechanics.

Each character basically has four attributes: Attack, Defense, Damage, and Move. Instead of printing unique cards with different equations that only needs to be solved once during the game, just use a value for the second part of the equation with the dice roll. For example, a character with a strong attack might have a +3. When the player attacks a creature, he rolls the d6 and adds the value of his attack, which in this case is 3. You can express this on the card with a “<die symbol> + 3 = ?”, or whatever works for you.

The only problem I have with this is how close it treads to a standard RPG - roll a die, add a number.  With the equation, it’s add your numbers, then roll a die and add another number.  So the total Attack score changes each time, while the base equation stays the same.  That’s what I intended and what I thought I wrote.  Is that not what comes across?

This would also allow you to create stronger character cards that increase the values being used to represent higher skill level of the players. So a beginning character for beginning players might have a set of scores like +2, +1, +0, and -1. Stronger characters would be for more skilled players and use higher values, like +4, +2, +1, and -2. Of course, they would fight tougher monsters who have higher values (and maybe more treasures!) to keep the game progressing. Always gotta keep thinking forward!

This I intended to fix with an advanced equation set.  I was going to look at grade level appropriate arithmetic for the equations--ie, adding in fractions at 3rd grade, etc.

You’ll notice I introduced Move as a variable instead of a fixed number for each character, too. Players roll for how many moves they get and add their Move value to the roll. It still favors the “faster” characters that have a higher bonus, but it’s no longer a given.

I did consider move as a variable.  But a comment I got at RPG.net makes me think that I was right to rethink and make it fixed.  The actual combat, at least for younger kids, doesn’t need to be (indeed, would fail) if it was too tactical.  Once entering a room, movement becomes unimportant for those kids.

That’s all I got for now.

By all means, keep it coming.  It may seem like I’m disregarding what you say, but I assure you that isn’t the case.  Each statement makes me rethink a decision I made.  I think a few things are sort of fixed (Princess as an adventurer and not a goal), but everything else is still in varying levels of flux.  Convince me that your mechanics will be better or why mine don’t achieve what I’m aiming for.

Cameron, the only quick thought I have right now is try to design it so play is fairly quick. Maybe around an hour or so. Since this is designed for younger kids keep the attention span in mind. I am sure you are already considering this point, but I have seen many good childrens games that suck because the kids are ready to move on to something else before you are anywhere near done. It goes without saying, but I will say it young kids=shorter attention spans.

To this end in playtest you will get an idea of how long it will take to get 10 treasure tokens. So if during playtest, let’s say it takes 1 hour to get the ten, 5 would take maybe 30 minutes.After the playtest reuslts you could provide in the rules approximate play times for certain levels of tokens needed to win. That way play time could be adjusted to the players likes and or needs by changing the amount of treasure needed.

That’s exactly why I added the last line in the rules - vary token count for longer or shorter play. My guess is 10 tokens will be about 30 minutes since I’m considering token counts for monsters ranging from 1 to 5.  Another good reason for shorter game play for younger kids is that they’ll want to play again rather than burning out once.

Sorry Cameron I apparently missed the last line!

Well anyway it looks cool.

Cameron - 04 July 2009 09:53 AM

By all means, keep it coming.  It may seem like I’m disregarding what you say, but I assure you that isn’t the case.  Each statement makes me rethink a decision I made.  I think a few things are sort of fixed (Princess as an adventurer and not a goal), but everything else is still in varying levels of flux.  Convince me that your mechanics will be better or why mine don’t achieve what I’m aiming for.

That’s perfectly fine. You’re the same way that I am, but unfortunately, I’ve been getting really caught up in preparations for my first Play-by-Post campaign, so I can’t give this a whole lot more attention than I already have (at least for today, anyway). Besides, I’m don’t have adequate playtesters that are needed to decide which ideas work best; no four-year-olds near my house. But consider trying any suggestions with your playtester and see how it works out. You never know what kids will respond to. Keep up the good work!

My drawing skills are obviously not great, but I think this is the style of art I’m going to use.  If I had the money to pay an artist to make the drawings, I would, but I’m actually very happy with the result.  This took me 8 hours or so (because I was stupid and didn’t save changes last night, losing about 3 hours of work when Inkscape crashed!)...so don’t laugh at it.  (Actually, feel free to laugh as hard as you like.  I’m definitely not an artist.)