4th & Dragon : Dungeons and Dragons...and stuff

I just read the most recent errata for all the books.
It made some pretty major changes…

Do you like the direction WotC is taking with the errata?

Stuff I like about it:
- clarification for weapon/implement rules
- clarification for damage types vs. keywords
(Although I am not sure this is a good rule, at least there is one.)

Stuff I don’t like:
- Expertise is now a feat bonus (It did not really fix anything. It just makes things more bland since there is one superior option and other flavorful by inferior ones.)
I don’t like expertise in any case (I am houseruling the bonus) so does not really matter.
- Small random things that don’t really matter.

Indifferent about:
- Orbizard nerf (We never had an orbizard in any game so far.)
- Save penalty nerf (Seems like most save penalties only work on the first save of a power. I think the orbizard nerf was enough, this may be a bit too much.)

Just to kick off some rules debate here, since it is so quiet…

I still remember when we used to discuss the rules a lot more here, but I suppose most people are just playing and dealing with the things without many changes?

And a few questions to someone with the DDi subscription:
- Can you force things in character builder (like houseruled bonuses on top of the regular ones?)
- Can you install the character builer on two computers? I’d like one for the laptop and one for my home pc.

- Expertise is now a feat bonus (It did not really fix anything. It just makes things more bland since there is one superior option and other flavorful by inferior ones.)

It’d be nice if the designers just admitted that Expertise shouldn’t exist in first place. This change is an improvement, marginally, but it’s not nearly worth revising feats all over the place to accommodate it.

Otherwise, I don’t see anything interesting. I haven’t even been playing enough to have noticed the exploits they’ve fixed.

FYI: yes you can install the character builder on multiple computers: there’s no limit to the amount of PCs you could conceivably install the program on.
That said, you can only update 5 computers per month, meaning that any computer above the maximum limit will be “out of sync” for the month.

A quick link to the updates…
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/updates

88 pages of changes on the pdf version. Granted that includes all changes since the new edition came into print and includes multiple books, but its still alot.

I don’t have much to say since I don’t interact much with the 4E rules (I’m not DMing it), but I do like that they include the rationale for each errata item right in the same paragraph.  That makes my inclusion or exclusion of individual errata items that much easier to justify.  Such as “I don’t view X as a problem since it’s not affecting my game” or “Finally, that was really bugging me and I couldn’t figure out why.”

I too like that the rationale is included.

On the issue of Expertise, I’m kind of on the fence on this one.  The appropriate Expertise feat has quickly become a must have feat for all my players, a sure sign in my mind that the feat is unbalanced.  On the other hand, my players tend to be obsessed with their to-hit numbers, so that may be the result of their particular obsession.  I really need to run some numbers to make a final decision on the matter.

While I realize that save penalties have to be nerfed, as it was possible to stack them up to some ridiculous levels and thus lock down a creature for a whole encounter, I don’t like the way it’s being done.  By making all these penalties apply to only the first save made by the creature, one can still get the practically guaranteed lock down (by stacking the penalties) but it’s only for a single round.  I’d much prefer it if the fix removed the lock down (i.e. the stacking) rather than shortening its duration.  My preferred solution would be for save penalties to not stack and to come in two types.  The first type would be small bonuses that last until the save is made, representing effects that are persistently hard to get rid of.  The second type would be larger bonuses which have 1 round durations, representing attempts on the part of the caster to force the effect to stick around a bit longer (putting a bit more “juice” in the effect).  I’d be more flexible on this second type, allowing that 1 round boost to be applied at any time before the save is made, not just on the first round.

On the weapon/implement issue, I’m glad to see this clarified.  As more and more classes get to use weapons as implements (and vis-versa) there needs to be some very clear rules on the issue.

Likewise, the keyword issue is nice to see some clarification on.  That’s how I was running it anyway, but it’s nice to see it in print somewhere.

I guess the main reason for the save penalty nerf is the orb wizard with 28 Wis at epic level.
That one alone was able to generate -9 to saves, which would basically take out one normal or elite monster for a loong time even without any additional penalties on saves. With the additional penalties from items and feats you could lock down a solo without it having a chance to recover.

I guess it would have been ok to keep maybe one or two things that can last for the whole effect as long as the orb wizard penalty is for only one save.

I think the expertise issue will split the players into many camps. Some will just play as written, some will use the original feat as per the book text, some (like me) are giving the bonus to everyone without the feat.
Some will just ban the feat.

Rothe - 09 March 2010 07:01 PM

I guess the main reason for the save penalty nerf is the orb wizard with 28 Wis at epic level.
That one alone was able to generate -9 to saves, which would basically take out one normal or elite monster for a loong time even without any additional penalties on saves. With the additional penalties from items and feats you could lock down a solo without it having a chance to recover.

I guess it would have been ok to keep maybe one or two things that can last for the whole effect as long as the orb wizard penalty is for only one save.

While I don’t think a wizard with 28 Wis at epic level is a common occurrence (it requires starting with an 18 to 20 Wis which means that Int, and thus to hit, will suffer), I agree that it’s stuff like that which required some fix.  I just don’t like this particular fix.  For me persistent save penalties of -1, -2, or -3 are okay (so long as they don’t stack), while larger penalties should be a one time thing (and again, shouldn’t stack with each other or persistent penalties).  One timers, however, need not necessarily tied to the first save (as it is for many of the items, though not, interestingly, for the Orb of Imposition).