Looking for some ideas/help for a character for the same campaign that Majik has posted on.
Books:
- Standards 3.5 rule books
- all WotC books allowed other than setting-specific ones
- race: preferably human or feytouched (open to suggestions though) buy-off system might be allowed
Character creation info:
- 10,000XP
- 33 Point Buy for attributes
- Character will be around level 10-12 till the end of the adventure
- 9,000 Gold for items (mostly DMG, exceptions possible)
- good aligned
I’m trying to help a player who normally only likes to play wizards - but not this time. He could use some help not having much experience with either 3.5 (mostly plays 3.0 with some 3.5) or these kind of builds.
Problem is… he feels that this swashbuckler/rogue should be able to do ‘everything’ - which I told him he cannot. He cannot be face, locksmith, scout/sneaky type all at once as there are just not enough skill points for him to spend…
I’d appreciate some help with:
- ability scores
- what skills to focus on (there will either be a barbarian/druid or ranger/cleric in the group, so he does not have to have the highest spot/listen checks imo)
- when/what classes to take (I’d suggest going: Rogue 1 / Swashbuckler 3 / Rogue 1)
- PrCs that would be fitting for either a ‘pirate type’ or a ‘spy type’ (although spy can be interpreted pretty lax)
- feats
- items for 9k gold (maybe some kind of enhancement for skills that he is not so good in?)
One thing I just saw when looking at the feytouched class is that the +4 vs. enchantment helps a lot with this character’s very poor will save. Another thing I already suggested to the player is to take the feat daring outlaw at 6th level.
I have my own swashbuckler/rogue so I’m sure I can help here.
Daring outlaw is a must and I see you’ve already pointed that out.
Investing in two-weapon fighting is often great choice for rogues and swashbucklers as the sneak attack and insightful strike is added fully on each attack.
I’m not sure what to for stats I rolled for my own character and quite well
Good LA races can be a poison dusk lizardfolk.(which is my character) They may have less weapon damage for being small sized but most of a swashy/rogue damage will come from insightful strike and sneak attack. The big advantage of this racing for this build being while attacking with say a rapier he can make an off-hand claw and bite at a -5 penalty but only to the bite and claw not the main hand attack. Multiattack would reduce that penelty to -2. Remember off hand natural attack penalties do not apply to the use of a primary manufactured weapon.
The bonus from being small and racial bonus would actually help towards being a sneak/scout and lock/trapsmith. He won’t be able to throw in face but can do quite well sneaking around opening locks while disarming traps.
In the last adventure my swash/rouge was in he was swallowed by a direshark the 4d6 sneak attack on the 2 claws and the bite each was quite painful, infact I could have escaped after the first claw, but kept going and burst from his stomach alien style. Which would have been a lot more fun if the rest of the party was not also in the stomachs of two other dire sharks.
Yep - I’d say two-weapon fighting is the way to go for sure.
Not so sure about the poison dusk lizardfolk - although I can see the bonuses of being one, I don’t think my player wants to be something too strange, really. Human or feytouched still seems the way to go in that department - while the bonus human feat and skill points really rock, the dex boost and +4 bonus against mind-affecting effects are rather neat as well. I don’t think the LA+1 version of feytouched is worth it though.
I’ll ask him… if he wants to go the ‘sneak’ version, then the poison dusk lizardfolk would work.
I could have escaped after the first claw, but kept going and burst from his stomach alien style. Which would have been a lot more fun if the rest of the party was not also in the stomachs of two other dire sharks.
, especially the last part!
Edit: Just checked and the Whisper Gnome would fit really nice for this character. But… honestly… I don’t see myself allowing a Whisper Gnome to be played at LA +0. No way. What does everyone else think?
And more suggestions on abilities/feats/items highly welcome!
I used to have a Rogue/Swashbuckler/invisible blade, which was fun to play.
I think Invisible Blade blends in well because you get intelligence bonus to AC, and since Swashbuckler also has use for high int and rogue too, it is a good mix.
The problem is the AC part, since IB gets the AC only when unarmored, but that is not a huger problem if you have a friendly wizard willing to help out with mage armor, or even improved mage armor.
For feats I would get TWF too, simply to boost damage.
Daring outlaw is a good choice too.
My build started out like this:
Rog1 (for lots of skills)
Swa1
Swa2
Swa3
Rog2
Rog3
IB1
IB2
IB3
Rog4 (to top off skills that are not in IB class)
IB4
IB5
Rog5
Did not get as high as that, but those were the plans. I was also thinking about maybe eventually going assassin if allowed for neutral characters.
I would say that the build definitely did not know how to do Everything, but I did have lots and lots of skills. My bluff was also pretty good (in and out of combat) since I got a bluff skill boost item. I was not the most powerful fighter in damage output in the party, but that was no problem since I had plenty of other abilities and I was the so called skill monkey of the party even though I did not max out all the trap removal skills. Luckily we did not run into traps all the time.
Okay, I’ll summarize what we have so far - and what is more or less decided as well as what is still open:
Levels 1-5: Rogue 1
Swashbuckler 1-3
Rogue 2 Rogue 3 and possibly heading into Invisible Blade
Feats: (feats would have to be rearranged for IB)
Bonus: Weapon Finesse
Two-weapon fighting (1st) (3rd - open) Daring outlaw (prospective feat for 6th level) (9th - open, maybe improved two-weapon fighting?)
Race: LA+1 possibilities:
Poison dusk lizardfolk, whisper gnome (no way I am allowing this at LA+0) or feytouched (LA+1 version)
LA+0 possibilites:
Grey elf (nice stat boosts), feytouched (dex boost and +4 vs. enchantment, fey type), human (extra feat and skill points - only worth it if a good feat can be found)
Abilities: Now… this is difficult and depends on the race, obviously. The character should have some decent ‘locksmith abilities’ while still being able to sneak about sufficiently. Moderate skills in locksmithing/trap finding, moderate skills in sneaking/scouting and moderate conversational skills will be possible - but would it make sense?
Skills: See abilities, really.
So. Not much has been decided…
What help can you still offer at this point (before my player has decided on a race):
- any other classes/PrCs out there that might fit this build
- magic item shopping (skill enhancement?)
- feat help (the feats are already chosen if he should choose to go Invisible Blade) for 3rd and 9th level
- any suggestions on what to focus with the skills
For an Invisible Blade be sure to get Barbed Daggers (CV), which will require an Exotic Weapon Proficiency.
If he wants to go Whisper Gnome then the Blade Bravo (RoS) may be a decent choice, though his skills would look more like a Swashbuckler’s than a Rogue’s.
One superb option would be to use the Fighter Feat Rogue variant (UA), using a build like Feat Rogue 4/ Swashbuckler 3/ Duelist 7/ Tempest 5. Grey Elf would be a good choice for this, taking Improved Weapon Familiarity (CW) with Weapon Focus: Rapier and Two-Weapon Fighting, wielding a matching set of an Elven Thinblade and an Elven Lightblade (RotW). The first seven levels would go back and forth between Rogue and Swashbuckler, with feats as follows: Two-Weapon Fighting (1), Dodge (R1), Weapon Finesse (SB1), Improved Weapon Familiarity (3), Weapon Focus: Rapier (R2), Mobility (6), Improved TWF (R4), Spring Attack (9), Combat Expertise (12), Improved Disarm (15), and Crescent Moon (CW) (18). Note that an Elven Thinblade would be a suitable replacement for a Longsword on Crescent Moon, which WF: Rapier would apply to. Two-Weapon Versatility from Tempest would cause Weapon Focus to apply to your Dagger, thereby meeting all the prerequisites for Crescent Moon. When fighting defensively this character’s AC will rival that of the tankiest characters, which could be further improved by dropping Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, and Crescent Moon in exchanged for Two Weapon Defense and the Improved and Greater versions of that.
You could go for an entirely combat focused character using the Sneak Attack Fighter variant with Thug (UA) to qualify for Daring Outlaw. The build could go Human Thug 4/ Swashbuckler 16, taking Thug at levels 2, 4, 6, and 9, with Two Weapon Fighting (1), Weapon Finesse (SB1), Weapon Focus: Dagger (H), Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Barbed Dagger (CV) (3), Daring Outlaw (6), Improved TWF (9), Greater TWF (12), Weapon Specialization: Dagger (15), and Melee Weapon Mastery: Piercing (PHB2) (18). You actually may want to get Able Learner at level 1 and use Shortswords instead of spending a feat on Exotic Weapon Proficiency. Another idea to finish the build would be to get Deadly Precision (XPH) and take Crusader 2 at levels 19 and 20 for the Aura of Chaos stance, which gives you the potential to deal an abnormally high ammount of damage with every hit if you repeatedly roll good on your sneak attack dice. This is an extremely powerful combat build, though its almost entirely dependent on allies to enable its sneak attacks, but that can be remedied by taking Handle Animal and training/buying guard dogs to fight with you. A guard dog happens to be one of the best things to buy in the early levels compared to other inexpensive “gear” options.
Okay, I think I can offer him quite a few options now with the UA stuff on the table.
Blade Bravo is rather neat - but I fear a little about his damage output there as well as the lack of skills and corresponding points.
The Grey Elf option does indeed sound neat, but I am not sure if it would be as fun/good at the levels that we are going to be playing (for sure: 5-10/12).
Same problem here again though - AC will be awesome for sure, but what about damage output?
The Thug build is quite good as well - I’ll just have to check with my player with those skills…
Okay, let me get back to you when my player has reached a decision on most points. Thanks for the assorted help so far!
Hi I was just searching through the forums for a thread about a good “combat rogue” build and saw this thread.
I was just wondering
1) How this build turned out in actual game play, and
2) if this there is a better combat rogue build.
Basically we have a rogue 1 so far that is ready to level and my wife (her character) decided she wanted to make it more of a fighter type, but still be sneaky. Basically she wants to hit more (I explained NO ONE hits at 1st level but she was not convinced), and to roll a bunch of dice (hence rogue, for the SA dice)
I think for her a simpler fun to play character would be better than a more complicated uberrogue build as she is still learning rules. I was thinking rogue1/Swashbuckler3/rogue3/ then maybe SA fighter variant. It would kind of suck not having all those skills, but I do not know how much use those skils will be. This character will be running the “Pathfinder” series BTW.
Personally, the skill selection and abilities of swashbucklers sort of annoy me, but they’re a good middle ground between fighter and rogue.
Maybe look at scout or ranger too. In my most humble opinion, ranger is awesome for rogues looking to get a little better at combat - a much better choice than just going with fighter.
SA fighter variant isn’t all that awesome - I would just take one or two levels of fighter, and then only to get some spare feats.
If she focuses on just one sort of skill set, there should be enough points to go around - sneaking is always a good choice, and easy, as there’re just two skills to focus on (and a lot of possible choices have hide & MS as class skills).
I don’t know what sorts of things Pathfinder focuses on, but if traps are going to show up anytime she should throw a good handful of points into those skills - knock can replace opening locks, and deficiencies in bluff/diplomacy/sense motive can be worked around, but there aren’t too many ways to deal with traps besides disable device (lots of hps is pretty much it).
Oh, we have only played once so far and… well… the character is the most vulnerable of the lot, really.
If you’ve read this thread, then you know that it was rather difficult finding appropriate feats - when appropriate in this case means making the character more powerful in battle.
Swashbuckler 3 / Rogue X with the daring outlaw feat (at 6th) will work nicely if she wants to roll a lot of dice. But if she started out with Rogue, then she doesn’t have weapon finesse yet, right?
If you’d post her stats here, maybe I can think up something else.
Thanks Tal. I talked to her about what she wants to do (what a novel concept right?:))and she said she wanted to dual wield, so I think we are going to go Rouge3/ranger2/rogue5/nightshade enforcer10 so she can still have a decent amount of skills. However I would definietly welcome any advice you can give me.
Here are her stats:
Str 12, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 15, Wis 15, Chr 13
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Vexing Flanker
Skills: Balance, Diplomacy, Climb, DD, Hide, Listen, MS, OL, Search, SM, Spot, Tumble. Obviously not all maxed out.
I also let my players take flaws up until 5th level provided the feat they choose was available to them at 1st since a lot of my players do not know what PrC they are going to go for when they make their characters.
I know she wants weapon finesse, and weapon focus. Also, is there a feat that lets rogue and ranger levels stack for SA bonus? Like daring outlaw for a ranger instead of a SB and of so what is it in? I have all the Complete books, MiniHB, as well as a handfull of other (PHII, Races, Enviro series) but I can not find it. Heh every other class combo but not Rogue/ranger.
, especially the last part!
