We have a player that has only DMed a few times and wants to DM again. His campaign will be module based and alternate with our Age of Worms campaign. All hardcover Wizards material is available for use. The game won’t begin for a few weeks and due to this, most are undecided on the roles they will take. There are two of us that are dead set on using the Tomb of Battle (him because he owns and has never used it, and I because I will be the one to run the 4e campaign and would like to have a taste).
The group will consist of 5 players and begin halfway through level 2. This is really all I know so far and will keep this thread updated as I learn more. I was hoping for suggestions on what to play (maybe what a good duo would be for the two martial adepts). I seem to be leaning toward the swordsage, but could easily be convinced otherwise for the crusader or the warblade.
I really like Crusader, so I’m going to push that class.
If you both make Crusaders then you probably won’t even need a healbot-type character in the group. Take note that Crusader gets their new stances one level too soon, but if you multiclass two levels into any other class then your new stances will be gained at exactly the right initiator level. Including two levels of Paladin or Fighter in a Crusader build is probably the easiest thing to do, go Crusader at level 1 and take your 2nd and 3rd levels in something else, then nothing but Crusader afterward.
Stances like Martial Spirit and Aura of Triumph are better when you attack more often, so using Two-Weapon Fighting would be a superb option, and a good reason to use Fighter instead of Paladin. You’ll be able to get some maneuvers which require a shield to use, so Improved Shield Bash could be useful and it makes Agile Shield Fighter an option for a low-Dex build. Armor Spikes can also be used to make offhand attacks, so you could save yourself a feat by not taking Improved Shield Bash, and you’d even be able to use a tower shield. One feat to definitely consider with this class is Extra Smiting (CW), as your Smite Everything is so powerful yet has so few daily uses. Shield Specialization is good to have regardless of whether or not you use Agile Shield Fighter, and Shield Ward is another great choice. Stone Power is a superb feat especially at the low levels, and if you use it often Shards of Granite is good to take.
Paladin and Crusader have a lot of flavor synergy, plus both can make good use of a decent Cha score, though Indomitable Soul is wasted with Divine Grace. You’d also be able to use wands of Paladin spells, provided your Wisdom is high enough, plus if you can get Wands of Lesser Restoration created by a Paladin (spell level 1, caster level 2) it would only be a third of the normal cost. Fighter is a great choice to take with a Crusader build because there are so many good feats to take at the low levels. Unless your group is going to houserule what level Crusader gets its new stances at, you’ll definitely want to take two non-Crusader levels within your first three character levels. Human is good for feats, but if you’re going to use Fighter then Dwarf would be another good option. If you want to go into the TWF tree and your group houserules/ignores the Favored Class rules then Wood Elf is a good choice for the bonuses to Str and Dex.
If you have Craft: Armorsmithing starting out with a high enough bonus to always succeed by taking 10, you can have some decent armor and shield at 1/3 the cost. A Dwarf with 5 ranks, masterwork tools, and an Int score of at least 12 could make Masterwork Full Plate in fifty weeks if he always takes 10 on the Craft checks, and any non-masterwork shield would take only another week to make.
I am pretty sure that I am sold on the idea of Crusader18/_____2. I am undecided to go with either Paladin or Fighter, but the TWF shield bash route sounds fun and I have never done it. For character creation, I am unsure of the stat generation, but lets go with 36 point buy. Also, flaws will be allowed but there is a catch. One flaw yields one feat, but 3 flaws yields 2 feats, so its probably not worth gaining two feats. I like the idea of a dwarf smacking people around with a shield and an axe, but am up for other weapon suggestions.
I am intrigued to see a more in depth build. Thanks so far Biff. This looks great.
P.S.
The other PC using something from the ToB:Bo9S will be going something like Crusader1/Warblade2/Crusader+1/Warblade+16.
Here’s one build idea focused on melee combat and defense:
Human, Crusader 1/ Fighter 2/ Crusader+
Flaw: Shaky
Defense Build Feats: Stone Power (flaw), Shield Specialization (human), Improved Shield Bash (1), Agile Shield Fighter (F1), Combat Focus (PH2) (3), Shield Ward (F2), Shards of Granite (6), Combat Vigor (PH2) (9), Combat Stability (12), Extra Smiting (15), and any feat you’d want at 18.
Ability Scores: prioritize Str, decent Con and Cha, minimum 13 Wis, Dex and Int each 8-12. 36-pointbuy could go Str 17, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 14.
You’ll need to use a Heavy Mace to benefit from Shards of Granite. If you find two more flaws worth taking you should spend that on Shield Ward to move Combat Stability to Fighter 2. In that case, some decent feats to take at 15 and 18 would be Heavy Armor Optimization (RoS) and Greater Heavy Armor Optimization. Work on getting a high Enhancement bonus on your mace and spiked shield, you don’t need to worry about overcoming DR thanks to Shards of Granite or dealing a lot of damage thanks to your martial strikes, but with TWF and Stone Power penalties you’ll want all the attack bonus you can get. Just remember that most martial strikes require a standard action to use, so very few of them can be combined with a full-attack. Your most useful strikes early on will be Crusader’s Strike (Devo), Vanguard Strike (Devo), and Leading the Attack (White). If you don’t have one of those available just full-attack with TWF using the Martial Spirit stance. Note that no martial adept can have the same maneuver readied more than once, including classes who choose which maneuvers to ready. Hopefully between you and the other martial adept everyone will be getting a +4 to hit most of the time thanks to Vanguard Strike and Leading the Attack.
When looking over the favored weapons needed to use Shards of Granite I realized that a Heavy Mace build could really benefit from the feat Three Mountains (CW). Combine this with some Tiger Claw maneuvers like Dancing Mongoose and Raging Mongoose. Ideally a Crusader build with the TWF tree, Oversized TWF, Three Mountains, Ability Focus: Three Mountains, Extra Granted Maneuver, and enough Martial Studies to have both Dancing and Raging Mongoose would be able to full-attack with extra attacks about 2/3 of every fight. I doubt such a character would have enough feats, so Warblade with Fighter levels mixed in, or even use Psychic Warrior to go into War Mind to use Psychic Renewal, would be the best path to take with this type of build.
I had a Sword and Board NPC in my group of two players last year and the Shield feats from PHB2 were a great resource.
I had a Fighter/Knight combo, the extra +1 from the Knight class on the shield was good in the begining, as well as worth it later on during the begining of the “mid” range… where he finally died. The feats Biff listed for the shield are definetely worth taking for that build. I also took Shield Sling (IIRC, where you can treat shield as a ranged weapon for the bash), but I hardly ever used it because the NPC commonly was disarmed and relied heavily on his shield as his primary weapon due to that fact.
So this campaign should be starting in 2-3 weeks and we now have a better idea of what to expect. First of all, it is the Savage Tide campaign. The campaign supposedly as a fair amount of sea-type adventure and uses the Stormwrack book to some extent. This makes me weary of using a character in big, heavy full plate.
The group will most likely consist of:
Scout/Order of the Bow
Crusader1/Warblade2/Crusader+1/Warblade+16
Sorcerer
Cleric
My character (Crusader 1/ x 2/ Crusader+)
There a few houserules, but the ones I can remember are:
Once a skill is a class skill, it remains a class skill
Cross class skills are bought a 1 point per rank, but still have the normal max
28 point buy
Dead at -(10+con mod)
Magic items limitations (percentile to come by based on value of item)
Sorcerer and Bard classes has been modified (include bonus feats and a few other little things)
So, Sorcerers gain bonus feats as Wizards? Well assuming that UA is allowed the Fighter Feat Wizard variant could be applied to Sorcerer as well, thereby granting a bonus Fighter feat at the first and every fifth class level. Something like a Crusader 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Jade Phoenix Mage could be a good start. Maybe use the Battle Sorcerer variant (UA) and go Crusader 1/ Battle Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/ JPM instead. Yet another idea would be to use both the Battle Sorcerer variant and the Stalwart Sorcerer variant (CM) and just make a single-classed Stalwart Battle Sorcerer, taking either Improved Familiar (CW) or Dragon Familiar (DCN) to have another capable combatant and possibly a mount suitable for the campaign.
For your race a superb option would be to use the Races of Water variant (UA), which grants the general traits and +2 Con at no LA. A Race of Water would be equally beneficial, which grants the general traits and +2 Dex, -2 Con for no LA. A Race of Water with the Dragonborn of Bahamut template applied (RotD) actually gets to keep the +2 Con and the swim speed, but loses all other racial traits. A Water Orc which becomes a Dragonborn of Bahamut has ability score adjustments of +4 Str and Con, -2 Dex, Int, Wis, and Cha, plus all the Dragonborn traits but no light sensitivity, and no level adjustment. A Dragonborn Water Halfling would be superb for this type of game, especially if you get the breath weapon from Dragonborn and go Stalwart Battle Sorcerer with Dragon Familiar to use Share Spells with Blinding Breath.
Sorcerer gains eschew materials at 1st and a bonus metamagic or draconic heritage feat at 6th, 12th and 18th. The wizard variants won’t apply. They also gain 4+int skills per level and get the social class skills (ie. bluff, diplomacy, etc.) I am not sure how the battle sorcerer would interact with the sorcerer house rules, but assuming that they work out, this build is intriguing. I will see what he says about the variant races from UA (It might only be flaws and a few class options from that book).
Well, to drive things in a totally different direction…
Personally, I’m intrigued by the idea of throwing Half-Giant into the mix, and going some combination of Psychic Warrior and Warblade (with a possible psionification of the Jade Phoenix, if your DM would allow for such).
I’m not a huge fan of the Crusader’s unreliable attainment/recovery of lost maneuvers. It seems to me (admittedly, I haven’t personally tried it) that it is awkward and unreliable. I vastly prefer the Warblade’s “one round off to take a mere Full Attack” approach...and going the Half-Giant route opens the door for throwing Psionic feats into the mix, so you’re still potentially hacking away with a Greater Psychic Strike, or using Deep Impact to make sure that fancy, uber-damaging maneuver hits.
As for the crusader, I have heard it well said that:
“A random choice from a pile of awesome is still awesome”
Crusaders do not have to spend any actions at all to get their abilities back, unlike the swordsage who has to spend a full-round action for ONE maneuver, or the warblade who must use a swift action and take an attack not using a maneuver.
I happen to agree with Biff, Crusaders are awesome.
Then how come a post with the following text at the top:
“Posted: 24 February 2008 01:03 PM”
Says “nest weekend”?
As for the Crusader/Warblade issue...it’s more than that single issue (recovery), though that looms largest. I see a Warblade character as playing out with a “I like to open with X as part of a charge, then shift 5’ and do Y, then I can....”
Crusaders? If you don’t get your X that you want to use right up front, you’re out of luck. You’ve got to improvise with Y, or maybe even Q...’cause you haven’t been properly “inspired” yet.
Add to that a much larger selection of disciplines, d12 HD, and a set of class features that seems to be much more in line with what the class is for (chopping up things), and I just have always seen Warblades as the better pick.
YMMV of course, and I still haven’t had a chance to play one, beyond an NPC that survived about two rounds against the massed efforts of the party (I’m “stuck” in the DM seat most of the time).
That’s funny, it says back in september for me....
I like crusaders a lot, but that has somewhat to do with the Devoted Spirit discipline. It’s a fantastic tanking discipline. They can heal themselves, the delayed damage pool, and all the bits and pieces just lend themselves to that style. Crusaders are meant to tank, not to beat and slash like a warblade.
Personally though, my favorite is the swordsage. There’s just something about being able to run up a wall, teleport, spit fire at your enemy, pick them up and hurl them across the room, and smash through the wall you ran up a minute ago.
That’s funny, it says back in september for me....
It is indeed this weekend (first weekend of March).
As for the build...I also have the option to stay the big tin can and rely on things like spells to help me out (Stormwrack has a 1st level sor/wiz spell that is an immediate action cast and last 10min/level that makes you float in water.
Perhaps, Link, you’re looking at the “Joined” date under the avatar instead of the “Posted” date in the gray bar above each post?
That seems like a possibility.
Any suggestions that don’t use variants (since I have still yet to get a definite answer on them from the DM)? I also just found out that we might not have a cleric in the group which makes me think that crusader levels would be all the more beneficial with the healing options.
Personally, I’m intrigued by the idea of throwing Half-Giant into the mix, and going some combination of Psychic Warrior and Warblade (with a possible psionification of the Jade Phoenix, if your DM would allow for such).
I’m not a huge fan of the Crusader’s unreliable attainment/recovery of lost maneuvers. It seems to me (admittedly, I haven’t personally tried it) that it is awkward and unreliable. I vastly prefer the Warblade’s “one round off to take a mere Full Attack” approach...and going the Half-Giant route opens the door for throwing Psionic feats into the mix, so you’re still potentially hacking away with a Greater Psychic Strike, or using Deep Impact to make sure that fancy, uber-damaging maneuver hits.
I am open to a race with a LA of +1 at the most, and probably won’t get to use the level buy off. Warblade is indeed intriguing, but a little less so since there is a party member going warblade...although 2 couldn’t be too bad.
My goal with this is to play something that gives a glimpse at 4e. Whatever fills that requirement the best is what I want to play. I realize it cannot be a perfect look into the future, but it can be close.
