We’re starting a gestalt campaign again (my playing group is just loving it, esp. since we’ve got a small number, 2-3 players mostly). We start off at ECL 3 and I’m planning on playing a PsyRogue Archer. I was considering just Rogue, but the PsyRogue’s powers can come in handy as well. I want it as an Archer ‘coz the other two are already melee masters (Hex//Sor & Ftr//Clr), and we badly need a trapfinder. I was considering Scout, but why get that when I can focus my archery feats along one side of my progression? I was considering PsyRog 19/Elocater 1 // Ftr 20, but I want some more ideas. Please help.
Char Creation Rules:
Ability Scores: 32 Points
Books: Core, Races, Completes, Eberrons.
Note: The group has adopted my modifications on Skill rules. Hide & Move Silently become Stealth, Listen & Spot become Perception. Any class that has any one of the old skills gain the new skills as class skills (i.e. Rogue now has Stealth and Perception), but also get 1 less skill point per level (i.e. Rogue now has 8 + Int mod skill points per level).
Archer focused rogues don’t typically work that well, because of the 30’ feet restriction on sneak attack. The best you can do I think would be to focus on the crossbow (and thus take the crossbow feats) and take crossbow sniper from the PhB2. You’ll get some dex to damage and sneak attack out to 60’.
I’d switch from Psychic Rogue Archer to a Psionic Ranged Attacker Rogue. By this, I mean change your build to something like the following, assuming you can get away with changing Psychic Assassin‘s “any evil” requirement to “any nongood”:
Focus on ranged touch attacks, such as Energy Ray, as your sneak attack damage will be the same type of damage dealt by the power. Good disciplines to choose would be Nomad or Egoist, especially since you could take Mind Cripple for your Psychic Assassin special ability and use Metamorphosis to become something with an abnormally large number of natural attacks. You’ll need Spring Attack to qualify for Elocater, but Mobile Spellcasting (CV, adapted to be usable with psionic powers) would also be a superb choice. I’d also be sure to get max ranks in Use Magic Device, to be able to use wands of choice Wizard spells like Greater Invisibility. A Wand of Camouflage (CD) along with the power Chameleon will stack as they grant different types of bonuses, which will completely offset the penalty to hide checks for sniping, so you can cast a ray spell for sneak attack and spend a move action to hide to avoid detection every round. You’ll get all the great Rogue goodies, plus the buffs, utility, and blasting power of Psion, sacrificing the high BAB and HP of Fighter in favor of making ranged touch attacks and being more dependent on personal buffs for survival. I think it would be a really fun character to play.
How does your group deal with LA for more powerful races or templates?
Or have you decided on a race already?
Each point of LA goes on one side of the progression. Example: An Aasimar starts Pal 1//LA+1. A Drow can start as Clr 1//LA+1 to Clr 2//LA+2.
Archer focused rogues don’t typically work that well, because of the 30’ feet restriction on sneak attack. The best you can do I think would be to focus on the crossbow (and thus take the crossbow feats) and take crossbow sniper from the PhB2. You’ll get some dex to damage and sneak attack out to 60’.
I wasn’t really planning on focusing on ranged sneak attacks, just the regular ranged attacks (but then again, it’s not really a bother if I can pull of a sniping combo with Greater Manyshot). I wanted Rogue/PsyRogue on the build just for trapfinding and the other sneak skills (as the others in the party are just bound to rumble into every d@nged trap they encounter without one). I was really just considering a long-range battler, but since Biff came up with this pretty cool Psion//Rogue, I’m now considering to change religion.
I’d switch from Psychic Rogue Archer to a Psionic Ranged Attacker Rogue. By this, I mean change your build to something like the following, assuming you can get away with changing Psychic Assassin‘s “any evil” requirement to “any nongood”:
I actually don’t have to bother with changing the alignment restriction at all. The Hex//Sor and the Ftr//Clr are both evil, and I was also planning to be evil. I forgot to include that the crazy DM is planning to run an anti-good campaign, which means Pallys at every turn!
If your LA is only on one side of the progression, I am sure Biff can come up with a way to spice up your character even more.
I don’t know the possible monstrous races out there either - maybe there’s something nifty which would fit here as well. I mean - what better chance to play something powerful and monstrous than in a gestalt game with the above-mentioned rules?
Why not go rakshasa just for the kicks?
Even though starting at ECL 3 would not make that possible unless you are using savage progression.
I would actually go Elan for your race, and take Improved Elan Resilience from CP. There aren’t really any decent templates that come to mind from the allowed books you listed, though if you can get away with it the Shadow Creature template (LoM, MotP) would be a perfect fit plus it’s one of the best +2 LA templates in the game.
This character is actually capable of handling virtually any situation or encounter. As both a primary spellcaster and a highly skilled character you should have enough choice divinations, teleports, and other problem-solving powers and skills to get through any noncombat challenges. For encounters, you’ll be highly mobile and capable of protecting yourself, you’ll have AoE damage for groups of opponents, sneak attack energy rays for focused damage, and if faced with bruiser-type foes with a lot of hp your Mind Cripple should disable them in only a few rounds depending on how many attacks you have (Metamorphosis: Hydra, Spring Attack with all your bites, Hustle to re-hide with Chameleon to offset size penalties). On top of that you’ll have things like your racial Resilience, Vigor, Body Adjustment, and Body Purification that arcane spellcasters don’t even have access to.
For your powers known I’d only take a few damaging/offensive powers, and use the rest on a mix of protections, combat buffs, and problem solving and utility powers. Definitely get Overchannel, Talented, and Psionic Meditation, along with Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. Extend Power could be useful for buffs, and especially Persistent Power (safe WotC link) if you can get away with it. Just don’t forget to take the feats required for Elocater on time to start taking levels in it. Another option may be to use the Feat Rogue if you want to have a lot more feats in exchange for losing most of your Sneak Attack damage.
Things just changed big time. DM doesn’t want to run an Evil campaign after all. So, everyone is changing characters. I’m now running with a Human Pal//Sor and a Goliath Soulknife//Clr. I still want to play a trapfinding, ranged combatant, but not evil. And nope, DM doesn’t want to tweak the pre-reqs for Assassin and PsyAssassin.
I was thinking Egoist 13/Elocater 7 // Rogue 17/Elocater 3, but I’m feeling like I’m missing sumthing here. Pls help. Same char creation rules apply. I want to play an LA+0 race, preferably one humanoid-looking…
I’ll still recommend Elan for your race, as their racial psionic abilities will really help out. Plus their outward appearance is no different from a Human.
The main reason for using Psychic Assassin was for Mind Cripple, which no other class gets. Being able to deal 2 points of Int damage per attack without a saving throw is definitely worth a 5-level investment, especially considering how many low-Int creatures would only take a few hits to disable. There actually isn’t any reason why an evil-aligned character couldn’t fit into an otherwise nonevil and good aligned party, other than the presence of a Paladin. Take Belkar from OotS for example, he’s a Chaotic Evil character in a mostly good-aligned party with worthy goals, but he fits in just fine and actually contributes quite a bit. If not for the presence of a Paladin in the party I’d say just stick with the Psychic Assassin build, but the other player shouldn’t have to change his character.
One idea would be to focus on summoning/creating additional combatants, since your group is only 3 PCs. Astral Constructs are good for this, and there are some amazing tricks a focused build can do with them. The feat Ectopic Form: Emerald Gyre (CP) makes even a 1st level construct a formidable foe against smaller opponents. Boost Construct is also superb as it will grant your Emerald Gyre an additional ability from at least the Menu B list, since it will already have Improved Grab. You could also take levels in Ectopic Adept (CP) which grants quite a few nice abilities. You can take Expanded Knowledge at 3rd level to gain Astral Construct as a power known regardless of what discipline you choose. Boost Construct can be taken with your 1st level Psion bonus feat, as it has no prerequisites, and Emerald Gyre can be gained at Psion 5. You’ll still need to spend a feat on Skill Focus: Craft, Sculpting before taking Ectopic Adept, but that can wait until later in the build or you could choose to just not include that PrC.
The Feat Rogue variant (UA) could still be a good choice, especially if you’ll be spending a lot of feats on your Psionic abilities. That will give you plenty of feats to spend on ranged combat and the prerequisites for Elocater. I’d personally prefer to use the Feat Rogue variant over the standard Rogue class in most cases, since the number of feats gained will most often be more beneficial than making Sneak Attacks at all levels.
Another idea would be to use Pyrokineticist or some variation for the Fire Lash ability. As a ranged touch attack feats like Point Blank Shot will apply, but since any feats applicable to the standard whip can be used with it you can make Power Attacks while wielding it. Since its base damage type is fire, any extra damage applied such as from Sneak Attack or Power Attack will also be fire damage. I’d take only one or four levels of Pyrokineticist, as anything more isn’t really worth it. Weapon Afire at 4th level can be used on the Fire Lash, and you can even wield two at once if desired. Your character’s size doesn’t affect the lash’s damage and your natural reach won’t affect its range, so going with a small-sized or smaller race would be very beneficial. Whisper Gnome (RoS) is probably one of the best small-sized races in the game for +0 LA, and since their racial feat Silencing Strike (RoS) can be used with a standard Whip it can also be used with a Fire Lash. A TWF-based build combining Rogue and Elocater with Fighter and/or Psychic Warrior plus at least one Pyrokineticist level would be a great build. Since you’d be almost useless against creatures immune to fire (though you’d deal +50% damage to cold-subtype creatures) I’d suggest going Sonokineticist as there are almost no creatures immune to sonic damage. Note that the reduced damage dice for this variant only apply to the damage dice of the class’ special abilities themselves, so your Sneak Attack damage with a Sonic Lash would be unaffected by this change.
Shapers are downright nasty. I’m playing one in the Psionic Tournament over at ORP. Let me put it this way: if he survives long enough to call a construct, it’s game over for the enemy.
Hmm, the Feat Rogue looks just fine (and since UA is approved for char creation, it’s just dandy) for my purposes. I’m not really after the SA dice; I’m more interested in the skill points and the trapfinding. I think I’ll take the advice and go with the Shaper, more to compensate for the missing 4th man than anything (I really like Egoist). Maybe I’ll even go with Constructor, but I’m not really sure right now.
Here are some ideas I’m currently considering. Could you guys pls check ‘em out?
Egoist 13/Elocater 7 // PsyRogue 17/Elocater 3 (staggering the Elocater levels so that I get full Psion manifesting)
Shaper 14/Ectopic Adept 5/Elocater 1 // PsyRogue 11/Elocater 9
The DM has graciously allowed the Master Transmogrifist (CAr) for psionics. Would it be a good idea if I went Egoist 13/Master Trasmogrifist 6/Elocater 1 // PsyRogue 16/Master Transmogrifist? (Again, staggering MT levels to get full Psion manifesting)
I’m considering Elan, but I’m also strongly predisposed to Elf. Those keen senses could sure come in handy for finding secret doors when we’re being marched through hallways…
I’m considering Elan, but I’m also strongly predisposed to Elf. Those keen senses could sure come in handy for finding secret doors when we’re being marched through hallways…
With a gestalt character you can easily make a dual-focused character, or in this case focus on three areas: Rogue skills, summoning Astral Constructs, and either ranged attacks or using Metamorphosis for combat forms. Use Feat Rogue/Egoist and take Constructor 10 and Elocater 4. You’ll need to take Boost Construct at Psion 1, Expanded Knowledge: Astral Construct at 3, Ectopic Form: Emerald Gyre at Psion 5, and Expanded Knowledge: Psionic Repair Damage at 6. With your bonus feats from Rogue you can get Spring Attack in preparation for Elocater plus either ranged attack feats like Point Blank, Precise, and Rapid Shot, or melee and natural attack feats like Power and Leap Attack and Cleave, Improved Trip, and Improved Grapple.
Another idea would be to include a few Soulknife levels and take Soulbow for your ranged attacks, though in that case Thri-Kreen would be the most optimal race to use. That build would look something like LA +2/ Monstrous Humanoid 2/ Monk 1/ Soulknife 2/ Soulbow 10/ Soulknife 3// Feat Rogue 20. Use Zen Archery and Wis will be your only really important ability score, with Con and Dex being somewhat useful and Str and Cha as dump stats. Keep in mind that Tactile Trapsmith makes it so Int could also be low without your Rogue skills suffering. Make your Mind Arrows +1 Lucky and you’ll have two chances to hit with each one, adding Seeking as soon as you can. With Multiweapon Fighting (MM) and the Improved and Greater versions you’ll be firing quite a few mind arrows each round. An alternative build would include an Outsider creature type for your base race with Psion or Wilder levels, preferrably Egoist, to use Metamorphosis to become an Arrow Demon (MM3). The only real drawback to this build would be the bizarre base creature, though it’s most optimal to be making as many attacks as possible and Thri-Kreen easily accomplishes this. For a gestalt build it would actually be best to use Fighter 20 to qualify for the Specialization tree plus Ranged Weapon Mastery (PH2), but Feat Rogue or Psychic Warrior are suitable as well. Another idea would be to take Cloistered Cleric instead of Rogue as I demonstrated on 3ebb for a Kobold Soulbow/Cleric gestalt build.
Well, we already started yesterday. The DM has discouraged summoner types as they tend to slow down combat. It was just a discouragement, not an outright ban, but she delivered it oh so sweetly that I just can’t find the courage to go against it. :(
Anyways, Biff’s reminder of the elfsight power was just in time to convince me to go Elan. I’m now going Elan Egoist 13/Elocater 7//Psychic Rogue 17/Elocater 3, focusing on combat forms and sneak attacks. The Goliath Soulknife//Clr changed to a Warblade//Cloistered Cleric with focus on the Stone Dragon discipline. He is planning to get that mountain hammer maneuver that renders the target flatfooted, IIRC. We should make a pretty cool combo!
Oh, before I forget, I sure could use some more help with my feats. So far, I’ve only got the feats figured out until 6th level, just so I get Elocater on time (7th level). We’re still only at 3rd level, and my DM is not being too strict on our feats until after 5th level - meaning we can still shuffle our feats around until we get to 5th level.
Abilities: Str 11, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 16, Wis 13, Cha 11 (13 base - 2 racial)
Flaws: Murky-Eyed (2x miss-chance rolls), Vulnerable (-1 AC)
Feats
1st - Dodge, Point-Blank Shot (flaw), Precise Shot (flaw)
3rd - Mobility
6th - Spring Attack
And oh, do I get to add my power points gained from Intelligence twice (once for Psion, again for PsyRog)? Off-hand, I’d say yes, but I’m not so sure…
