I see Twing’s point and actually agree. Death is a part of an adventurers daily routine, whether it be dealing it out or facing it head on(or off as the case may be).
Mechanics aside, if you do not fear your character dying, I’m sorry, I’m just the tension will just not be there.
If you play the game to overcome challenge and obstacle after challenge and obstacle, what is it that you are risking for your character?
And this discussion is not a 3e vs 4e discussion at this point, it is a game play style choice. And since that is opinion, it is sort of a moot point to discuss.
For the most part I agree, but what would be the alternative? Just like any game, death is akin to losing, and even then, there are methods to remedy it already. If the game becomes one that players cannot lose, I don’t think it can capture the medival fantasy sword-and-sorcery adventure very well. There are many stories where heroes die, or sacrifices themselves to save others, or just blow themselves up to kill the BBEG, etc. If you take out the actual danger of dying, you cannot portray the genra well. And, with death, it comes with the ‘sitting out’ part. Death happens most commonly in combat, and as combat contains mechanics to be resolved, it’s unreasonable to actually come up with something for the dead character to do that is meaningful without wasting other people’s time.
I actually instituted an afterlife thread, carrying the RP over to the Fugue Plane (yes, SuperJosh, I’m looking at you). Even dead, his character was still getting to “play the game”.
Just wanted to pop in and say that Andorax’s idea of the fugue plane was a great idea because 1) it gave me something to do while the rest of the group finished up combat and tried to get me ressed, and 2) it changed death/ressing to more than just wait for someone to cast a spell. My character had to come to grips with his death, then when his friends where getting him ressed he actually had to make the choice of whether to go with the servants of his god to the afterlife or follow the call of his comrades back to the Prime Mat Plane.
This did a lot to “uncheapen” (yea I know it is not a word) the ressing process as it was not just “puff he is back.” There was tension on whether or not Khasar would accept the res or not, and when he did it felt like a boon from his god to finish his work on this world, as opposed to just having had a prolonged bout of unconsciousness.
I’m not saying there should be no threat of death. I’m saying there should be no mechanic that upon a single failed roll takes me out of a game completely. I’m talking about save vs. fear where upon failing you run away pretty much for the rest of the combat. Or save vs. petrification. Or save or die. Any of these takes me out of the game for potentially hours at a time. Why should I want to play a game where within 5 minutes of sitting down at the table I could fail a roll that takes me out of the game session for the rest of the night? That’s incredibly lame. If I’m going to set aside 4 hours to play D&D with my friends. I better be playing D&D for that time! Not going to play Nintendo or read a book because I failed a save.
Death through attrition is fine, since you are still involved through multiple rounds of combat, you can see your hitpoints dwindling and have many opportunities to run away, or change your tactics before you actually die. I’m ok with that. What I’m not ok with is a mechanic that takes me from hero to zero in a single die roll.
4e is being designed by people who share my taste in design since they agree with me that save or lose mechanics are bad. Its one of the reasons I’m very pro-4e.
I think that point got lost in some of the posts here Kyle. It seemed to me to devolve to a point where people were complaining about death in an RPG as a general no-no, not save or die. With that in mind, I agree that a save or die spell is bad news. But I think character death is a must. There must be a threat of actually dropping a character or else there isn’t much fun. Without risk, the rewards seem cheap.
I was going to write a post much like Darken’s but he beat me to it and said it better anyway.
Death through attrition is fine, since you are still involved through multiple rounds of combat, you can see your hitpoints dwindling and have many opportunities to run away, or change your tactics before you actually die. I’m ok with that. What I’m not ok with is a mechanic that takes me from hero to zero in a single die roll.
A fun game should involve EVERYONE, ALL the time. The worst thing about about 3.5 (outside of level drain, and disjunction), is Save or Lose.
Kyle, I think that is an unfair statement to attribute this to 3.x. Save or Die has existed in every itteration of D&D and I doubt it will go away in 4e either.
As far as it forcing you to sit out of the game, I disagree. The game still goes on and you are still there. I agree with Andorax that one can enjoy his time as an observer while making a new character. I also agree with JK that making the character is half of the fun of playing. I enjoy spending time fleshing out characters and often do that as a past time while saving them aside as NPCs for when I DM. I disagree with Jim that it is a draining process, I think it is one of the most rewarding processes of playing any RPG.
I do like the mechanics of revivify and there is a non-psionic divine equivalent that we use often. I like the “you have 1 turn to cast the healing spell on your companion or he dies and will need a res and face losing a level” aspect it offers. Most death is not perminant in D&D but is often a setback. Take the time you “lost” by dieing to figure out how you (as a player, as well as your character) can take steps to prevent that from happening in the future. If your death does happen to be perminant...that happens. As others pointed out, read a book and check it out.
I think there is a disconnect between a MMO where nothing is really save or die and everything can be resolved with some quick twitch gaming and the mechanic of D&D where death is something that is potentiall perminant. In an MMO you have much more of an investment in your character. Aside from there being a time investment there are actual money investments. RPGs like D&D try to emulate fantasy stories in which death is a very “real” thing. It tries to balance fun with fantasy reality. It doesn’t sacrifice one for the other like a game like WoW does where when you die you simply become a spirit and run back to your body and autores. You actually have to invest in resurecting a character.
In the end, I doubt that save or die is going away. 3e, 4e or not.
Save or Die spells are gone. Completely. It was one of the things that the Wizards folks said early on.
That said, I agree with your sentiment, Lune, just not as it applies to save or die mechanics. Dying because of bad choices or gambles gone wrong is one thing. Dying because you rolled a 9 instead of a 10 just sucks. I’m not talking you have like half your hit points gone and you stick around only to die. I’m talking you meet the bad guy at your full health and he wins initiative and you die before you can even run.
I think one-shotting is a problem whether it’s PC’s or NPC’s that are doing it.
I have heard most of the same things you have from the 4e crew and I still doubt that save or die is going away. Where there are saves there will still be save or die. Or at the very least “save or be forced to reroll or die”.
Save or Die has existed in every itteration of D&D and I doubt it will go away in 4e either.
Actually, I think they axed the concept in 4e.
As far as it forcing you to sit out of the game, I disagree. The game still goes on and you are still there. I agree with Andorax that one can enjoy his time as an observer while making a new character.
This process is not for me. I want to play the game, not watch it being played. This is obviously subjective, but this just isn’t fun for me.
I also agree with JK that making the character is half of the fun of playing. I enjoy spending time fleshing out characters and often do that as a past time while saving them aside as NPCs for when I DM. I disagree with Jim that it is a draining process, I think it is one of the most rewarding processes of playing any RPG.
Making a character *is* rewarding, especially when that character isn’t axed by a single die roll. I love making characters, but I love playing that character even more. It takes me many hours to roll up a character, think of a concept, create a history, etc. I just don’t have the energy to that time and time again in the same campaign.
Case in point, I made a cool doppleganger character. I took the time to create portraits of the different people she shaped into and took notes on each of their personalities, etc. I was having a lot of fun with it. It was quite frustrating to roll up a new character 3 sessions later. It just makes me not want to put any effort into it.
Take the time you “lost” by dieing to figure out how you (as a player, as well as your character) can take steps to prevent that from happening in the future.
Dude, our group was TPK’d and we literally got together without Chibby to test run combat maneuvers, tactics, and other things to try and become a lean, mean, monster killing machine. We had a fake game using our actual characters just so we could practice as none of us wanted to roll up new characters *again*.
A fun game should involve EVERYONE, ALL the time. The worst thing about about 3.5 (outside of level drain, and disjunction), is Save or Lose.
Kyle, I think that is an unfair statement to attribute this to 3.x. Save or Die has existed in every itteration of D&D and I doubt it will go away in 4e either.
Point conceded. Prior editions had the same issue. So its not exclusively a 3.5 issue.
I haven’t seen 4e yet, so I can only conjecture as to what it will be like. But as Cameron pointed out, the designers have been pretty straightforward that there is not really such a thing as one roll taking you out anymore.
Now, there are still mechanics like petrification that supposedly work more slowly. Meaning if you get hit with it you are slowed on the first round and then you get another save on the following round before you are petrified. I don’t know what happens after that. Whether you keep getting to make additional saves to recover, or whether you have to be aided by a party member. I suspose if you are truly helpless that could qualify as a classic save or die effect, just mitigated by giving you an extra round and a chance to save against it. We’ll have to see the full rules.
But still, I think 4e is a step forward, at least based on the type of game I like. They have reduced insta-kill effects and pretty much any duration based magic gives you a save every round to shake it off. I like that a lot better than getting hit with a spell and being stuck with the effects for the duration.
I want to play the game, not watch it being played.
You missed the next sentence where I said that you can enjoy observing the game while making a new character. Actually, it was Andorax who first said suggested that earlier in the thread. You can use the time to figure out a good way to introduce your new character to the party, etc. Or you can choose not to.
For some reason I’m reminded of a guy I have played with who gets upset if the smallest thing doesn’t go the way he expected it to. He has a very “take my ball and go home” attitude about D&D. I’m not saying thats you, just that you can’t have it both ways. Either you have death and people will get upset when it happens, or you don’t have it and there is no threat for loss or failure.
Also as a suggestion to your downtime woes perhaps bring a backup character to your game in case your current character bites it. Then all you should have to do is some updates to bring it up to speed with the rest of the party and a logical close to his pregenerated background to introduce him. Honestly, I find this is a fairly common practice. That way you get to have your cake (the rewarding experience of creating a personalized character) and eat it too (the enjoyment of actually getting to play that character)! :D
Dude, our group was TPK’d and we literally got together without Chibby to test run combat maneuvers, tactics, and other things to try and become a lean, mean, monster killing machine. We had a fake game using our actual characters just so we could practice as none of us wanted to roll up new characters *again*.
Dude, you say that as if I didn’t read the entire thread and hadn’t already heard about what went on. Even had that been a real game what happened is NOT the end of that campaign unless you want it to be. You could temporarily play other characters (perhaps even pregenerated ones like Tenser) to go and save your characters. None of them were lost perminantly by D&D standards and it could be the setup for a great campaign. Let me tell you as a DM that having the PCs in your NPC’s pocket for owing them a favor is a great hook for adventures.
As was said previously, “Kevin’s character” got out of dodge and is currently with Kevin. He could mount a counter-offensive. It sounds like “Kelly’s” character got away too so it doesn’t sound like a TPK to me. As Darth Carnivor pointed out, “Again, this game is wide-open for a ton of options. A little adversity makes a saga. Kicking (Gibbering Mouther Ate Your Word!) all the time and gettting loot gets boring.” If I’m not mistake he plays in this campaign...I’m really just agreeing with him. Save or die is not the same as “save or start a new campaign” even in a TPK. Some of the most interesting games I have played in got more interesting after the TPK.
Kyle: If they change save or die to be more akin to how you described petrification then I would actually like that. But I would still classify that as a save or die spell. Just like the currently existing druid spell that fills your lungs with water...you last until your breath runs out, but in the end you save or die. But honestly I hold to that if there are still saving throws then there will still be save or die spells. Even something as simple as in 3.x’s mechanics making you “helpless” for one round, the next round some NPC is going to CDG you which in and of itself is just as bad if not worse than save or die. Really thats what saves are for...either you save, or you suffer some ill consequence that could result in your death or the equivalent thereof.
My points stands: I just don’t enjoy making many characters. I don’t disagree with many of the points, but I cannot lie and say that I will enjoy making another character or even having a backup character.
I don’t have a problem with death. I have a problem with one roll causing my character’s death.
And for record, Lune - I’m not a baby that expects to get my way at the game table. This is purely my beef with having hours of work and effort put into something wasted by a single die roll. I’d rather go down fighting that just poof, you’re dead. Roll again.
