4th & Dragon : Dungeons and Dragons...and stuff

Fair enough, Jim.  Just realize that there are those of us that expect death to happen once in a while...even at the roll of a single die.  In fact, going back through all of the different RPGs I have played I think I can contribute every one of my characters’ deaths to a single die roll.  But maybe thats just me.  *shrug*

I’m willing to bet that 4E will have things like turn flesh to stone or crystallize, even if it doesn’t have ‘save or die’. Things like this (petrification for example) are too much engrained in fantasty to throw away completely.

Different people have fun doing different things, nothing to be said about that except it is fact. I like making characters quite a bit, but some people don’t. In fact, judging by how many of them I see compared to how many I see who like to make new characters often, I’d say it’s quite a large number.

You know Link...we should do an NPC exchange sometime.  I think I got about 20...how many do you have to trade? :D

Lots

I love one shotting. PCs or NPCs. If there’s absolutely no way to one-shot (or two shots at most) pretty much anything ever statted, then there’s something wrong with the ruleset. (one of my main beefs with all sorts of heroic fantasy rulesets is that an ambush is NEVER an ambush, merely beginning of combat) Which explains why all systems are inherently flawed…

I’ll concede that players sitting out the game when they die is a major problem. I have no solution for that. But Save or Die is hardwired into fantasy and can’t be removed, no matter what WotC says. Particularly glaring in 3.5 is Save or Suck, which puts a player out for entire combat. Considering the unhealthily long time it takes to play through one round, this is worse than Save or Die. Death is once or twice unless the player is dumb or extremely unlucky (and death has many positives in medium to long term: future plot hooks, chance for disgruntled player to get a new character, afterlife session, demonic possession...), but Save or Suck adds up and has NO positives whatsoever.

One-shotting should be possible if the conditions are right; it should not be a part of normal combat.  Even in an ambush one-shotting should be difficult.  It is rare for an ambush to go so well that the ambushed force is wiped out to the man within seconds of the engagement beginning.  Generally all the ambush does is deplete a part of the ambushed force and force them to take up less than favorable positions for the ensuing combat.

3.x’s problem is that I can be the one ambushed and still one shot my opponent.  That’s not right.

As for 4e having “save or die” stuff, well, the first thing to point out is that there are no saves in 4e (the thing 4e calls a save is actually a duration mechanic).  So it will always be accurate to say 4e did away with “save or die.” That said, it will still have attacks that are capable of one-shotting an opponent.  Just look at the D&D XP characters.  Corrin (the paladin) has a daily power which deals 3d8+3 damage.  That’s a max of 27 damage, which is equal to his hp total.  So Corrin is perfectly capable of one-shotting himself.  Add in the 1d8 lingering damage, and he might still one shot himself even if he doesn’t roll max damage on that initial hit.

There are saves, they just call them “resistances”.  But they are saves.  And where there are saves there are save or die.  Or at the very least save or be screwed for the remainder of the combat which I believe was the original complaint anyway.

I may be an aberration, but I have no problem with my character being taken out for a combat. I mean, I would prefer that my character not be taken out, but if he is, its no big deal. Some people say they will go off and read a book or watch TV or something. That just boggles my mind! I want to sit there and see what happens!

My character just took a shot that would have taken out someone else if he wasn’t there. So he still served a purpose. Then, if my character is brought back in somehow, I am ready to jump in and start playing without someone having to go get me and then everyone having to explain what’s going on. I already know.

I love playing RPGs, I love being with my friends, and I love watching the story unfold. Whether I am active or not I want to be a part of it.

Lune - 08 May 2008 10:41 AM

There are saves, they just call them “resistances”.  But they are saves.  And where there are saves there are save or die.  Or at the very least save or be screwed for the remainder of the combat which I believe was the original complaint anyway.

Not to seem adversarial (you know I love you Lune:)) But the only thing I have seen that is even vaguely near “resistances” is the “resist” property which is just the latest incarnation of DR.  For instance the Black Dragon has Resist: 15 Acid.  Meaning it ignores 15 points of acid damage every attack.

There are “Saves” but as stated before they are a duration mechanic.  Lets compare the 3.5 sleep spell to the 4e sleep spell.

3.5 requires a failed will save.  If you fail you are unconscious for at least 1 minute, so 10 rounds of sitting out the fight.

4e requires the caster to hit your Will defense.  Once he does this you are slowed. You then get a chance to save.  If you fail you fall asleep, then each time your turn is up you get another save, if you fail you are still asleep.

So in 3.5 you are out basically out of the fight if you fail your save.  In 4e you still get to act for 1 round before you are asleep.  Furthermore even if you are asleep you are only out until you save.  Since a save is 10 or higher on a d20 you have a 55% chance to save each round meaning it is very doubtful you will be out for more than a rnd or 2.  Besides that you are still rolling each round so you are still “playing” even though your character is down.

Obviously this does not address the issue that some people like the save or die mechanics, but it does go to show that 4e has gone to great lengths to get rid of them.  Whether that is a good thing or bad is up to the individual.

I think the “resistances” that Lune was referring to are what 4e calls defenses.

Also, I’d like to point out that I was being slightly facetious when I said:

Black Plauge -

...So it will always be accurate to say 4e did away with “save or die.”…

That’s why I went on to discuss one-shotting in the context of what we know.  One-shotting is the new “save or die.” Unfortunately, we don’t know enough about high level powers to know exactly how easy or hard it is to one-shot a character.

What we do know is that at first level daily powers can, on a good damage roll (or a crit), one-shot an opponent.  Max damage for each of the XP characters is as follows:
Corrin: 27
Erias: 28
Kathra: 35
Riardon: 32
Skamos: 21
Tira: 28

Their hp are:
Corrin: 27
Erias: 24
Kathra: 33
Riardon: 23
Skamos: 20
Tira: 28

Thus each character is perfectly capable of one-shotting themself and most could one-shot at least some of the other characters too.  This, however, is only at first level and even in 3.5 one-shotting a 1st level character is fairly easy for another first level character.  What we really need to look at to know more about one-shotting are the higher level powers (paragon and epic tier) and there haven’t been many of those previewed yet.

Black Plauge - 08 May 2008 01:20 PM

I think the “resistances” that Lune was referring to are what 4e calls defenses.

Yup. Resistances are d20 Advanced. It appears my mind-taking powers grow stronger every day

*shakes fist at JK* You win this round!  Ya, I got “defenses” and “resistances” all jumbled together with “saves”.  They are all really the same thing with a slightly different mechanic.  I doubt that ALL spells that have an ongoing effect will require a save every round.  If that is how it is then I concede my point but would like to make a new one of HOW RETARDED THE NEW SYSTEM IS! 

...seriously.  That is stupid.  Its fine for some spells.  Even most spells.  But not all.

Lune - 08 May 2008 06:53 PM

If that is how it is then I concede my point but would like to make a new one of HOW RETARDED THE NEW SYSTEM IS!

How dare you blaspheme against the holy 4e rules!  How dare you I say!  You are hereby banished for 5 seconds.  Don’t even think about posting anything until that 5 seconds has sunk in so you can consider your evil deeds and correct them.

lol

Just to be a spoil-sport: (This is a sarcastic post - if you pee your pants in offense it’s your fault)

Kyle’s character won initiative and hit the baddy with one shot for 114 points of damage this last session - cutting the rest of us out of the whole combat because it killed the baddy.

In the next combat my PC lost initiative and got suprised so got hit and killed before not ever even getting to act. I was out of the combat before I could even do anything… boohoo.

I demand a new rule system that prevents this!