(Edit: Gah, this got long… sorry. If you want, you can skip to the last part where I say what I’d like some advice on.)
yes, it’s me. The one with the 3.0/3.5-mix DM. We had a nice little goodbye-session for one of our players who is going to Taiwan to work there and (sadly) got into a little discussion on grappling mages.
Background:
Haste is done 3.0, most classes and many other spells are done 3.5.
Mage Armor and Shield count for touch AC.
Greater Spell Focus does not exist, but Spell Focus grants a +2 to the DC.
The DM loves wizards and favors them quite a bit.
Characters:
Rogue/Fighter/homebrew swashbuckler PrC/shadow creature (only ‘half of template’)
Bard 10
Wizard 5 (conjuration and enchantment specialist) / homebrew PrC 4 (a combination of Red Wizard and a PrC with spell pool)
Wizard 5 (illusionist spec) / something 3
Fighter / Paladin / Cleric / 1/2-dragon (only the first 2 savage progression levels)
Ranger 6 / Wizard or Sorcerer 1 / Arcane Archer 1 or 2
Situation:
Our six characters (only three players were actually there) followed a renegade wizard in the underdark and his ‘fellowship’ of giants/ogres/bugbears/goblins. We caught up with them at some point - the ‘brutes’ were keeping watch outside a house (which later turned out to be Leomund’s Secure Shelter. Our conjurer sent a cloudkill down the tunnel and into the guarding creatures while we approached the scene, partially invisible. During the fight, our bard charmed the giant (had 2 fighter levels), my rogue killed the ogre (+3 fighter +3 rogue levels) off quickly and we soon faced the wizard at the door of his shelter. Our wizard luckily recognized the spell and managed to dispel the secure shelter while the bard cast dispel magic twice and rolled very high, dispelling the 6 or 7 buffs the wizard had on (remember that with the old version of haste, one can cast 2 spells per round).
An improved invisible bugbear fighter/rogue (CR 12 supposedly) started hacking into our half-dragon and others at this point and my character joined the fray and stood right next to the wizard. The wizard took a 5’ step and cast two spells - my character’s turn (not hasted btw). He took a 5’ step as well and went for a grapple. AoO from wizard missed, first grapple succeeded and with his iterative attack he went for a pin - and also succeeded.
Well, our DM did not agree to what the rules say at all. In his mind, no high level wizard (was CR 13 even though he only could cast 6th level spells) should be able to taken down this easily (I rolled well, was lucky btw). From his point of view, grappling is the best alternative in almost all circumstances vs. mages - and that destroyed the cinematic effect of their appearance and role as well as being too powerful against them and slowing things down to much.
He held a staff in his hand and because he would not agree with what the rules said, he let the wizard use two different wands (magic missile + fireball) that round, heh. Furthermore, when a creature managed to hit my character, he had to roll another opposed grapple check to see if he could hold on and did not manage to hold on when the fireball hit (ie: a wrestler lets go if he’s hurt was the DM’s argument). In the end we managed to succeed and we postponed the discussion until after the session - only sensible, heh.
Well, I tried to tell him that not being able to do anything against a high level mage except beat him to death is not balanced at all and that a grapple isn’t an automatic success. Furthermore, if his large lackeys had still been up, the giant could easily have joined and broken the grapple - but they weren’t. Imo, any character who stands more or less alone against a group of 5 (the illusionist was kept mostly out of the fight) should not stand a chance.
The Question(s):
a) What spells/abilities/options/items does a wizard have to evade/escape/break a grapple?
b) It’s a balance-issue in the end imo, but also an issue of style/preference. Our DM wants long-ish fights against bosses - and sometimes those are wizards. If the boss is taken out of the equation too easily, then that’s not to his liking. He doesn’t want to have us grapple his wizards the whole time - how do you see this whole issue/situation, etc.?
Dimension Door is a verbal only spell, mirror image could buy time until the
grappler finds the right target, displacement works well here to.
Spell Compendium has a few spells that damage people grappling you.
I think one is called balor’s nimbus
Remember only spells with somantic components aren’t allowed in a grapple.
From Fire Shield
“This spell wreathes you in flame and causes damage to each creature that attacks you in melee.”
Personally I’d say a grapple is a melee attack so anyone grappling should take damage from fire shield.
Power Word stun works fairly well if the enemy has been soften up a bit.
Minions to attack the grappler are a must.
Complete Mage has some spells that allow a short range dimension door 1/round for several as a
move action.
Dimension Jumper I believe its called. also check spell compendium for Dimension Door, Greater,
which is similar in effect.
Dimension Door Greater lasts for 1 round/2 levels and allows the caster to teleport 1
per round up to 25ft away +5ft per two levels as a move action. Once again its verbal only so it can be cast in a grapple.
Or cast before battle
Ghostform and 8th level spell makes the caster incorporeal try grappling that.
The spell Blink and Greater Blink cause the caster to flicker between the ethereal and material plane making most grappling impossible.
Check the magic item compendium that has all kinds of useful tools.
A clerical ally to cast freedom of movement also works here.
I thought of DD, mirror image, and displacement as well - but forgot blink for instance.
The nifty items from the magic item compendium work nicely, but my DM doesn’t have it nor does he know about them.
How would an anklet of translocation (short distance dimension door as a swift action) work in a grapple for instance?
I think I’ll make a compilation of a) spells, b) items and c) tactics that a wizard can use to keep out of reach, keep from being grappled in the first place or to escape a grapple later today or tomorrow when others have posted as well.
a) What spells/abilities/options/items does a wizard have to evade/escape/break a grapple?
Don’t stand so freakin’ close to a melee guy. Seriously, any high-level wizard worth his hat should be smart enough to know better than to field cheap shots like that. If your DM is pissed, he should be pissed at himself for being stupid enough to let a fighter close with his wizard.
I usually try to play it fair with my group. If they’re able to take advantage of a situation or an error I made with tactics, I let them have it, but on the other hand, if they’re playing stupid, they get doinked in the patookus pretty well. And none of them can afford a res yet.
A wizards primary spell defense is not armor class but avoiding attacks all together.
Yes, I agree. Problem is, our DM wants a mage whose lackey’s are defeated and who is more or less surrounded by his enemies (us) to still be able to do something. We may attack and rid him of his hps, but anything else would be… unfair?
His argument was that it’s unfair if there’s an almost infallible method to deal with a wizard without even having to spend a feat or using PrC powers or anything. Grapple is available to any brute - and he can easily pin a wizard. Now, if not every wizard has DD memorized, preferably a silent version, then he’s toast. Ah well.
Don’t stand so freakin’ close to a melee guy. Seriously, any high-level wizard worth his hat should be smart enough to know better than to field cheap shots like that. If your DM is pissed, he should be pissed at himself for being stupid enough to let a fighter close with his wizard.
Yeah, that’s just not how he wants it to work, though (see above). Problem is, he is boosting them and nerfing others to achieve his ends and that sometimes leads to problems with players (me most of the time - the others don’t know the rules so well) who feel that they are unable to achieve much of anything against such a foe.
Sounds like your DM needs a beating with a +5 Broomstick of Your (Gibbering Mouther Ate Your Word!) Here. If he wants to play like an idiot and expect to win by stripping you guys of your options, I’d say to quit playing with him. Seriously, does he make the fighters battle with no armor so the wizard has an easier time stabbing them?
What you need to do is get someone with an Extraordinary Spell Aim-ed Anti Magic Field (ESAAMF) to walk/fly up to these wizards and hand them an (Gibbering Mouther Ate Your Word!)-beating. “What? I can’t run away or cast any spells, and all of my magic items are useless?” Congrats, you just lost D&D!
Maybe it seems to you as if I’m needlessly exposing myself to a rules framework that I don’t really agree with - but I like the group and I do want to continue to play.
What I am hoping (!) to achieve with this thread is to collect the multitude of ways that a wizard can defend against a grapple (be it with spells, items or tactics) and simply tell him a collection of these to show him what’s possible. And to drive home the point that going toe to toe with a melee-type is not what a wizard is made for.
I don’t mind him using more options for the opponents as well (that’s why I’m willing to give them away), I just want to have more options for my character than deal damage. Grapple is one of the rare other possibilities.
I don’t want you to think that you need to split from your old group, that was mostly just me griping out loud about the absolute nonsense that your DM is regurgitating at the gaming table. Tactics should be the first thing that keeps wizards free from grapple checks: them not being near people bigger than them (which is everyone), and them having big friends to stand between them and the other dumb brutes. Your DM essentially gave up his right to avoid grapples for free when he had all the mooks killed.
Teleporting/dimension dooring/blinking away is another good way. Even if your henchmen are dead, they should have bought you enough rounds to move somewhere safer, like a floating platform above the mess where you can sit and drop fireballs down on your foes. We’re talking about the uber-intelligent characters, so they should have some grasp of when to fall back. Even a fighter moves around fer Pete’s sake.
Covering yourself with grease helps a ton. Ranks in Escape Artist help a ton (and wizards get tons of skills due to their intelligence, so it shouldn’t be too hard to get a high score. What else is he going to put it in, climb?). Universal Solvent acts the same way as grease. Freedom of Movement makes grappling impossible, which is essentially what your DM is doing, only without good, solid mechanics and actual rules behind it. Mirror Image is another good one at delaying grappling. Polymorphing into something more than two sizes larger (or even just something that’s good at grappling)will put the kibosh on being grappled. A contingency with one of these helpful spells is even better. Anything that makes you incorporeal is equally as good.
In short, if your DM is using fiat to avoid grappling, then he’s entirely uncreative and does not deserve to DM. Grappling is good, and can be tricky if you’re unprepared for it, but if you have any reason to think it might come up, there should be enough ways to make it difficult that don’t screw your players over completely. If he’s that bent on having ‘cinematic’ fights rather than fair fights, he needs to work on his encounter planning more, and not be afraid to let the dice fall as they may.
Okay, I’m going to try and summarize what we have so far.
a) Tactics
A wizard should be hard to reach for opposing melee types, so much is obvious. He can stay far to the back or up on a ledge/wall/platform, fly, be invisible or just stand behind quite a few of his lackeys.
If a melee type does manage to close with the wizard, he will have to make some decisions based on his priorities. He can a) take out the melee type, b) use spells to get to safety or move to safety, or c) ignore the melee type. Option c) should not work out in his favor in the long run, heh. If it would, then what use are the melee types at all?
If he is indeed grappled, he can order his lackeys (preferably a large/strong one among them) to free him, delaying his own action. When his man breaks the grapple, he is free to cast or move to safety.
(Disclaimer: I’ll only list spells and items that make sense up to mid levels for now.)
b) Spells Spells that keep a wizard out of reach:
- fly
- invisibility (improved)
- repulsion
- ethereal jaunt (has its downsides)
- dimension door
- haste/expeditious retreat (increases speed and therebye flexibility)
- obscuring mist / fog cloud or any higher level cloud effect (gives him the chance to retreat)
- darkness (see above)
- levitate
Spells that keep a wizard from getting grappled in melee:
- blur / displacement
- mirror image
- blink
- any spells that increase his touch AC (remember that mage armor and shield count for touch AC in this campaign)
- fear (it’s always nice to send the melee types running)
- gaseous form (a horrid spell otherwise though, really)
- contingency (a DD to safety or similar measure to evade the grapple)
Spells that help him get out of or win a grapple check:
- grease on self
- freedom of movement (cannot be cast by himself, but bards, clerics, druids and rangers can cast it, so he could have a buddy do it)
- dimension door
- blink
- alter self polymorph self (into something large / strong)
- enlarge person
- fire shield (will at least damage the opposing grappler)
- reduce person (not really that valid a choice due to it being a fortitude save, but still)
- bull’s strength (well, it’ll help a little...)
c) Items
- ring of freedom of movement (heh, problem is that the PCs then will soon have a few of those )
- potions of the assorted above-mentioned spells
- vest of escape (well, combined with many, many closs-class ranks in escape artist and a high dex?)
- amulet of translocation (a swift action, short ranged dimension door - nifty)
- glove of storing with necessary component for an ‘escapist’ spell when in a grapple
- boots of swift passage (move action to teleport short distance)
- bracers of arcane freedom (still spell effect - yay!)
Anything that I missed?
******************
Doom -
I see it as you do for the most part even though I would allow a DM to set up house rules as he sees fit. It’s the player’s choice in the end then if he wants to play under those rules (and that DM) or not. He should be willing to listen to reason more though - and he shouldn’t be as narrowminded as he is. If he’d make some adjustments while keeping his beloved haste and other stuff as is, I’d be happy (enough).
He should simply get a bit creative and use tactics to keep out of our reach in the first place - just like you said. And when push comes to shove and we’ve managed to dispel most of his buffs… then he should just let us have him in whatever way we want - and manage to.
As you’ve made it clear that you’re not going to take a stand against this DM’s unfair tactics and unfun way of playing the game, it seems that you have the matter well covered. Present him with his list, see him consider it a while, possably use some of it. Witness the group coming up with a new tactic to deal with wizards (Int poisons, perhaps), and see him nerf it in some manner as well (well, wizards are in the alchemal lab a lot, so they should have GOOD Fort saves).
The problem you have here is not as specific as grappling versus wizards. The problem you have is a DM who has lost sight of the fact that the creatures he creates are there TO BE DEFEATED by the PCs, and that refusing you a consistent, coherent set of rules isn’t fun, it’s frustrating.
My proposed solution has nothing to do with wizards and grappling. I recommend you lobby the group to move to 4E (UNMODIFIED 4E) and don’t look back. Switching to a new edition is the perfect time to jettison a bunch of excess house rules that are dragging the game down and breaking it.
I’d side with Andorax here, an edition switch seems to be the perfect excuse to jettison bad house rules.
On the other hand, given that the problem originates with a single person (the DM) even a rules change might not help. I’m willing to bet that even under a new edition he’ll quickly start adding bad house rules in as events happen which defeat his idea of how things are supposed to go.
Really the best way to solve this problem is to strike at the root of the problem and change DMs. Offer to DM a 4e game for the group yourself, or even a 3.5 game if they’re really adverse to changing editions, and then run it strictly RAW. Most DMs will jump at the opportunity to play for once and sitting on the other side of the screen may give him a better appreciation of the rules as they already exist and function so that when he changes sides again, he’ll be less prone to making such house rules.
As you’ve made it clear that you’re not going to take a stand against this DM’s unfair tactics and unfun way of playing the game, it seems that you have the matter well covered.
The problem is that discussions with him aren’t easy (heh). He lives approx. 600 km away and when we play in Berlin, then we want to do just that and not get into basic, lengthy discussions. If there’s an issue, then there’s usually a discussion in which he talks 10 times as long as the rest of us and where I don’t really press the matter as that would ruin the fun of being together with friends. Actually I might ask him if he feels like meeting at some point when he’s in Berlin and we’re not playing - just to discuss some issues openly.
The problem you have here is not as specific as grappling versus wizards. ... and that refusing you a consistent, coherent set of rules isn’t fun, it’s frustrating.
I think you are quite right here. Another example from the earlier session (which wasn’t that frustrating, but serves well):
We ‘met’ a purple worm before we caught up with the mage and his entourage. The gargantuan beast had swallowed our bard - therefore our wizard gave up a hold monster to save him. The worm did not make the DC 22 will save, heh, and was helpless. My character flanked the beast and it was helpless - the DM still did not grant me my 3d6 sneak attack damage. Why? Well, logical reasons (in his opinion) - anatomy of a huge worm? *shrug*
It’s a magical beast and I see no reason whatsoever to deny a poor rogue his sneak attack damage - that’s just another spontaneous nerf, really. As I said, it wasn’t really frustrating as we’d won already (3.0 doesn’t grant the monster another save each round as 3.5 does, remember?).
I’m willing to bet that even under a new edition he’ll quickly start adding bad house rules in as events happen which defeat his idea of how things are supposed to go.
Yes, that might be the case. I actually don’t think he’ll want to switch editions because my guess is that 4th edition is not suited well for what he wants - plus, he’s got these house rules for 3.5 that have worked so well all this time and that are so fun, heh.
4th edition… yes, you are certainly right that an edition switch would be a way to do away with most of the problems. I don’t think we’ll make the switch though - for the above-mentioned reasons and because two other players are rather rules-lazy and would not want to learn a new system. I’m not 100% sure I will like 4th edition either - but I’m giving it a try as both of you know. I’ll take a good look at the books as well when they are released.
Offer to DM a 4e game for the group yourself, or even a 3.5 game if they’re really adverse to changing editions, and then run it strictly RAW.
I’m actually doing that since fall last year - I’m DMing the Red Hand of Doom for him and mostly the same group of players that plays in his campaigns. I’m going strictly 3.5 and have allowed all WotC resources (the character build threads are almost all on this forum). He’s playing the feytouched bard 1 / rogue 2 / swashbuckler 3. He didn’t want to play a wizard under 3.5 - additionally, another player really wanted to play one, so…
The campaign is running nicely, really. He does feel a little outperformed by the catfolk ranger and catfolk druid, but hey…
In any case… I’m starting to ramble in the early morning… I’ll check with him and will see what we can come up with something concerning grapple… or not.
Thanks again everyone (which doesn’t mean that anyone that has something to say/add is not very, very welcome do to so)!
The Question(s):
a) What spells/abilities/options/items does a wizard have to evade/escape/break a grapple?
b) It’s a balance-issue in the end imo, but also an issue of style/preference. Our DM wants long-ish fights against bosses - and sometimes those are wizards. If the boss is taken out of the equation too easily, then that’s not to his liking. He doesn’t want to have us grapple his wizards the whole time - how do you see this whole issue/situation, etc.?
Here’s my take on this situation:
a) It’s already been pointed out that all characters, arcane spellcasters in particular, have more then enough options for avoiding/escaping a grapple. I think you’ve overlooked the PHB2 variant for specialist Conjurers, which happens to be the easiest/earliest one to obtain.
b) Not all classes are equal, every character is better in certain situations, and every character has certain situations that they’d want to avoid. In order for game balance to be maintained, there must be checks and balances, and grappling is one of the few things that can still make spellcasters worry. Even then, a character can make preparations ahead of time so that situations like that can be avoided. A houserule which is created with the purpose of mitigating the weaknesses of what’s already one of the most powerful classes in the game does nothing but serve to further unbalance the game.
If your DM just wants wizards to win everything they do, play a wizard, or find a new DM.
I’m convinced that “Wizard Lover” is a DM type (akin to Storyteller, Wargamer, etc.). I’ve played under three separate Wizard Lover DMs. I don’t blame OP for being meek; there’s nothing you can do about it. Just roll a wizard if you want to have fun in the game. If that’s not an option for you, then either get someone else to DM or bail out.
