4th & Dragon : Dungeons and Dragons...and stuff

Okay, here is my cheif complaint with 4E.  The method of character generation looks really boring and lacking in depth.  How does one take a base idea for a character and develope it into a full character?

Some of you may say I’m being argumentative.  Yeah, that about sums it up.
This is an invitation to a friendly debate about the the character generation process of 3E and 4E and which one is better.  Note the word friendly: if you approach this with the idea that it’s a challange, it will be a lot of fun.  If you take it as a personal attack, it will devolve into a childish squabble (also, I will hate you).  Let’s be reasonable adults here (I put down my sword, you put down your rock and we’ll kill each other like civilized people).

Here is a pair of 3E characters to demonstrate what I mean, after which I will drop the gauntlet.

What I had in mind was a dreamworld kingdom high up in the mountains called Avia.  Their cities are built on the peaks of Kamo Mountain and on the floating chunks of land that orbit them, and they fly between their settlements on giant eagles.  The king is sick - dying in fact - but still alive, albeit bedridden.  In his state, he cannot rule propperly, so the kingdom is run by his son, with the aid of his nephew.  The prince is a brash, hot-headed individual, prone to rash actions and hasty decisions, while his cousin is more level-headed, so the two balance each other and make for a good ruling pair.

First Character
Prince Hawk Avia III, CG Human Fighter 8.
CG because he’s hot-headed, quick to act, but still good-natured.

Rolled following abilities (added 2 points to Dex for lvl 8); S: 16, D: 16, C: 16, I: 14, W: 12, Ch: 9.

Feats: Being he is a hot-headed fighter type, I chose the following feats
Mounted Combat: All rulers have to be able to fight on the backs of the giant eagles.
Power Attack: He’s heavy handed in his attacks, but as a result, his strikes are sometimes a little wild.
Cleave: His attacks are strong enough to plow through one opponent and into another.
WPN Focus, Specialization and G Focus in Longsword: He had dedicated himself to the study of this weapon and is very skilled.
Improved Sunder: A disarmed opponent is easily dealt with and he’s strong enough to break his enemies weapons if he goes all out.
Improved Initiative and Quick Draw: Being hot-headed, he’s quick to draw his sword and start a fight.  More than that, he believes in making the first strike, so he specialized in getting into the fray quickly.

Skill: Fighter skills are limited, I give anyone who says so that much.
Climb, Jump, and Ride maxed out.  Handle Animal at half max and Spot maxed.  These seemed natural choices for a mountain kingdom.

Equipment: Elven Chainmail, Mithril Heavy Sheild (chosen because they are light, which is needed when flying on the back of an eagle), Flametongue (hot-headed, so a fire-weapon seemed appropriate), Bracers of armor +2 (a little extra protection and not a lot of weight).

Mount: Eostre, a giant eagle, statistically identical to what’s in the MM.

Second Character

Prince Lark Avia, LG Half-Elf Paladin 10
LG because he’s a very organized person.  Half-elf because he’s not actually the duke’s real son, just a child he took in because he didn’t have an heir.

Rolled following abilities (+1 to dex, +1 to wis for lvl 10); S: 12, D: 15, C: 13, I: 16, W: 18, Ch: 17.  After rolling the abilities, I basically placed them opposite Prince Hawk.

Patron Deity: Inti, god of the sun and justice.

Feats: Given his thoughtful approach to life, I chose the following feats.
Experties: He’s a cautious and defensive fighter.  He’ll often sacrifice a good hit to ensure propper defense.
Improved Disarm: Non-violent by nature, he prefers nonlethal means of subduing foes, so he often tries to disarm them without hurting them whenever possible.
Mounted Combat: Again, giant eagle.
Leadership: Although he’s technically not the crowned prince, he’s better suited to leading than his cousin.

Skills: Reflecting his position as advisor and ambassador for the kingdom of Avia, he has the following skills.
K(Nobility and Religion), Diplomacy, Sense Motive maxed out.  Ride and Handle Animal at half max.

Typical Prepared Spells: Again, reflecting his non-violent personality.
1st: Cure Light Wounds x2; 2nd: Sheild Other, Delay Poison.

Equipment: Celestial Armor, Holy Avenger (both gained on a paladin quest earlier in his life), Ring of Air Command (a gift from his father).

Paladin Special Mount: Jenevir, a giant eagle with paladin mount special abilities of a paladin equal to level 7.

Okay, now you’ll notice that I made each choice based on the style of the character.  However, I did not have any of this in mind when I began.  After looking over each feat/skill/item possible for the character, I picked out the ones that seemed most fitting.  In the end, this helped flesh out the details of each character’s personality.

Okay 4E nuts, do the same.  Take a basic character idea and, using only the abilities you can pick and choose from the 4E rules, fully flesh out the character.  If you can make a characters this fleshed out from just the abilities of the 4E core rulebooks, you will have taken the major ground for my biggest argument against the system and I will be forced to concede the potential of 4E to be a good system.
‘Cause I can’t see how you would make characters like these in 4E.  Not at all.

Now I didn’t actually bend any rules with these characters, each uses only possibilities from the 3E core rulebooks, but I will allow you to tweak a few rules and still call it a valid argument, because a little rule-bending is a good thing, even in a good system, but it can’t be outlandish changes from the core.

Ok, so I have a character concept that I think fits very well into 4th edition.  Its an Eladrin Rouge with the Fey pack muti-class feat, I’m sorry but I can’t remember the name or stats but that’s not very important.

So my character has been a teacher a large part of his life, Int is his highest stat at 20 and Eladrin gives him bonus on both Arcane and History, so he’s been naturally gifted in teaching others about the world.  The dean of the school he worked at though thought he was not as well taught as he should be though, and due to Rouge not having History as a skill they can train in he wasn’t.  So the dean told him that he would have to pass a test that one of the other teachers put on or no longer be able to teach.

My character locks himself in the school library, studding so he would not loss what he loves doing.  In the late part of the night he falls into the trance of sleep but finds that he got teleported someplace new.  A beautiful women is sitting across from him and says she is very impressed with his efforts and will give him what he wants so long as she can call him hers.  My character accepts and she kiss’ him on the cheek leaving a small leaf like birth mark were she had kissed him, and suddenly he remembered a war that had torn the world apart as if he had been there.
So he passes the test and everything goes groovy, but about a year after the incident with the strange women my character starts feeling weird, seeing shadows and getting nervous.  His family, wife and two kids, starting telling him that he’s acting different and he distances himself from his school work.  One day the dean comes to talk to him and says that with his mind slipping the way it is they would have to let my character go, but my character just looks at him and the dean freezes in place, no longer able to see my character as I teleport and run away (I used my warlock fey power eyebite without knowing it).

After that I run away from home and starting dealing with organized crime, trying to distance myself more from my family.  With my knowledge crime bosses use me as an adviser as well I am able to get into most places normal Humans can’t.  Finally one day I am told to rob a high up politician.  I do fine but the next day I wake up with several guards surrounding me and they are accusing me of killing him.

So my characters build will deal with using daggers and more positioning attacks to move the combat around to were I want my enemies, he’s a teacher and is going to believe in good strategy. 

My first feat was the Warlock pack mutli-class feat and the fact that it gave me history as a trained skill falls even more into my backstory.

Later I will be taking skill focus History for I am still interested in that field of study and also skill training Diplomacy, when I first fell into paranoia I kept lying (bluff was a trained skill at level 1) and I realized how much it missed up my life.  But I will never be rash, as I have all the knowledge skills (except for religion or nature not being ether religious or have lived out of the city) I will think things threw before I ever do any quick acts.

So their’s my argument, hope that adds to the debate.

first i like how the abilities count for “depth” and not the character background its self....
second dont we have enough whinny threads about 4e? If you dont like 4e dont play it. You dont have to post about it in a new thread every 15 mins about it and to “prove” 3.x is better you post characters using a different rule set.
I do like the “pacifist” Paladin, you know the class that based around divine military strength [sure what ever] and nice stat spread btw 18,17,16,15, 13,12… but sure seems like a nice little exercise, pointless proving nothing but ive all ways liked making characters.

RJ Dalton - 28 June 2008 11:06 AM

Equipment: Elven Chainmail, Mithril Heavy Sheild (chosen because they are light, which is needed when flying on the back of an eagle), Flametongue (hot-headed, so a fire-weapon seemed appropriate), Bracers of armor +2 (a little extra protection and not a lot of weight).

First thing you should know armor bonus dont stack exept armor+shield so the barcers wont give any bonus. if oyu want some extra armor other then magic armor or shield get a Amulet of natural armor.

Secondly the fighter character fit perfectly in 4th. I would put him unalign too.

Thirdly you half-elf would fit even better in 4th, half-elf in 4th are real diplomat and usualy prefer talkign to fighting. And again paladin would be good, but the way you telling me about how he act he would make a great Cleric. And he would be of a lawful good alignement.

All in all, both character would gain alot in 4th if you make a proper conversion.

First the fighter

Human fighter level 8

Stats : str 19(+2 lev 1 +1 lev 8), dex 16(+1 lev 4, +1 lev 8), con 16, int 14, wis 12, cha 10(+1 lev 4)

1h combat style

At-will : Cleave, Sure strike and Tide of Iron.

Encounter : Either Passing attack or Steel Serpent(lev 1), Sweeping Blow(lev3), Come and Get it(lev 7)

Daily : Comeback strike(lev 1), Rain of steel(lev 5)

Utility : Unstoppable(lev 2), Battle Awareness(lev 6)

Feat : Weapon focus(heavy blade), Quick draw, Action surge, Blade opportunist, Power Attack, Mounted combat.

Skills : Athletic, Endurance, Intimidate and Streetwise.

i think that would look nice for your fighter. Give him a flamming sword as before, a magic scale mail and a magic shield.

Half-Elf Cleric lev 10(yeah i change him to cleric it fit better the way you see it)

Stats : str 12, dex 14, con 16(+2 lev 1, +1 lev 4), int 16, wis 19(+1 lev 4 and 8), cha 20(+2 lev 1, +1 lev 8)

At-will : Lance of faith, Sacred Flame, Commander strike(warlord lev 1 at-will from racial bonus)

Encounter : Divine Glow(lev 1), Daunting light(lev 3), Break the spirit(lev &)

Daily : Beacon of hope(lev 1), Consecrated Ground(lev 5)

Utility : Divine Aid(lev 2), Bastion of Health(lev 6)

Feat : Group Insight, Improve initiative, Astral fire, Mounted combat, Skill training(History).

Skill: Religion, Insight, Diplomacy, Heal, History(from feat)

So thats how i see them, it would make a nice pair and i think i kept the idea behind the character.

ok, i’ll bite

First Character
Prince Hawk Avia III, G Human Fighter 8.
G because he’s hot-headed, quick to act, but still good-natured.

Rolled following abilities (added 2 points to Dex for lvl 8, and 4 points to Str for human racial and level 4); S: 18, D: 16, C: 16, I: 14, W: 12, Ch: 9.

Powers:
at-will:
Cleave: his attacks plow through enemies.
Reaping Strike: even his glancing blows hurt.
Tide of Iron: quickly dispatch enemies by pushing them off the ledges and cliffs.
encounter:
Steel Serpent Strike: his attacks hit hard and slow the enemy down.
Dance of Steel: same as above.
Come and Get It: an insult followed by an injury.
daily:
Brute Strike: a powerful attack.
Crack the Shell: a powerful attack that damages enemies armor and causes bleeding.
utility:
Unstoppable: being hot-headed gives him an extra adrenaline rush.
Battle Awareness: always first to act.

Feats:
Mounted Combat: because they fly on giant eagles.
Power Attack: He’s heavy handed in his attacks, but as a result, his strikes are sometimes a little wild.
WPN Focus: He had dedicated himself to the study of this weapon and is very skilled.
Shield Push: if you don’t focus on him, he will toss you around like a rag doll.
Improved Initiative and Quick Draw: Being hot-headed, he’s quick to draw his sword and start a fight.  More than that, he believes in making the first strike, so he specialized in getting into the fray quickly.

Skill:
Athletics, Endurance, Intimidate, Streetwise.

Equipment: Elven Battle Armor [hide], Flameburst long sword, Bracers of Mighty Striking (put more hurting on those that ignore him in combat), Amulet of Protection, nonmagical heavy shield.

Mount: ok, this will take a bit of work, as closest to a giant eagle in MM you get is a Roc.

You can make characters in BOTH systems that have great depth and are “cool” characters.  The problem I have had is trying to take my 3.5 character and port him over to 4e.

Why the problem?

Because in 3.x you said, “I’ll be a fighter” and then went about taking feats and skills to make you into the type of fighter character you want to be.

IMO in 4.x you need to start with the question, what type of character do I want to play, what can they do?  Then you work backwards and then find the class that fits that mold.

The issues come into play when you want something that doesn’t fit into those plans.

My issue was my 3.x fighter had cross class ranks in Spell Craft and Knowledge Arcana(yeah I know that hurt) now that didn’t cause me to use any feats and my background was such that it was well explained.

In 4.x I had to burn a feat to be able to have Arcana as a skill, that sort of ticked me off.  But all in all the sun will rise tomorrow and really I haven’t lost any sleep over it.

I think it is still D&D in all its flavor but 3.x and 4.x are different games, you can’t win Connect Four by playing with the rules of Checkers.

Batmanintraining, the feats in 3.5e that the fighter used to get his combat style are not needed in 4e for the same purpose. I think you will find that you can have non-combat related feats (skill training) and still make the fighter effective in battle. In 4e you don’t need feats to define your fighting ability, you can use them to add details to your character, like skill training and so on.

you can’t win Connect Four by playing with the rules of Checkers.

Here is MY conversion of The Paladin Character
Using the description by RJ he should be a Warlord but I kept him to RJ’s original “design”

Prince Lark Avia, LG Half-Elf Paladin Pelor 10
[RJ] S: 12, D: 15, C: 13, I: 16, W: 18, Ch: 17 [+1 to dex, +1 to wis for lvl 10]
[ME] S: 12, D: 14, C: 15, I: 16, W: 19, Ch: 21 [+2 cha,con race, +1 cha,wis at 4th,8th]

I thought about the multiclass option with warlord I might post that later

Half Elf Racial Abilities [that apply to example]
skill bonus + 2 diplomacy and insight
Dilettante: at first level you can chose a 1 at will attack power and use it as an encounter
Warlord at will/ encounter Commanders Strike
Dual Heritage: you can choose half elf, human and elf racial feats if you meet requirements
Group Diplomacy: grant +1 diplomacy checks to allies 10 squares near you

Paladin class Features [ if you don’t know what it is look it up, Im not typing it]
Channel Divinity: Divine Mettle
Channel Divinity: Divine Strength
Divine Challenge
Lay on Hands

Skills:
Trained Religion
Diplomacy, History, Insight

Feats by level
1 Linguist
2 healing hands
4skill focus [diplomacy]
6 group insight
8 Ritual Caster
10 Mounted Combat

Powers and abilities
1st At-Will: bolstering strike, enfeebling strike
1st Encounter: shielding strike [commanders strike]
1st Daily: radiant delirium
2nd Utility: astral speech
3rd Encounter: staggering smite
5th Daily hallowed circle
6th Utility divine bodyguard
7th Encounter divine reverence
9th Daily Radiant Pulse
10th Utility turn the tide

basically Avia starts out fresh learning skills that allow him to talk to his kingdom’s enemies as well as his Allies. Learning to control movements friends and allies on the battle field. He also takes abilities to protect his fiends from harm [his cousin is brash and hotheaded] He sacrifices him self to protect friend & family, until his last level of his heroic tier With the Privialge to Ride the mount of the giant eagals the Mount of the ruling class of the kingdom

Rothe - 28 June 2008 02:06 PM

Batmanintraining, the feats in 3.5e that the fighter used to get his combat style are not needed in 4e for the same purpose. I think you will find that you can have non-combat related feats (skill training) and still make the fighter effective in battle. In 4e you don’t need feats to define your fighting ability, you can use them to add details to your character, like skill training and so on.

Exactly my point in that the two versions are completely different systems and that if you start comparing them side by side thinking the same rules it just won’t work.

It is just hard to get out of the 3.x mind set and “waste” a feat for a frickin’ skill.  Personally I would have preferred each class have a set list of trained skills and maybe one skill that is completely open with no restrictions just based on class.

I think Andrewk has done amazingly here. It truely sounds like his character is what shapes his abilities, not the other way around. Sure aspects of his backstory may fit in because he needed a way to explain them, but it’s cohesive, and you know he started out with “I want to play a rogue with a troubled past… and I can teleport.” and whats more fun then fleshing a character out from there??

This thread is kind of pointless. The original post has two “fleshed out characters” which are a single paragraph followed by a list of game stats and magic items. You honestly believe that a person can’t write a single paragraph and follow it with a list of 4e stats and items that match up with what’s in the paragraph? I’d be happy to take your challenge, if completing it actually proved a point.

Your small gripe seems wrong as he says it is maxed out.  Not that it is maxed as a class skill.  He just maxed that one out. So he would have 5.5 ranks in spot which cost him 11 points and with the other 3 maxed out at 11 points a piece that is 44 total.  With handle animal halved it cost him either 5 points or 6. putting him at 49 or 50.  He has an int of 14 which is a +2 and so he gets 16 at first level +4 from human and 4x7 for the rest of the levels + 7 from human.  This gives him 55 points to spend. So he has 5 left.

This is all done from memory so i might be a little off, but I think i am right in this.  Even if my math is a little off I know i am right that he said he maxed out a cross class skill which would only net him 5.5 ranks in it.

Aside the 4E portage argument, one thing in particular stuck out to me:

“Now I didn’t actually bend any rules with these characters...”

Celestial Armor [22,400], Holy Avenger (both gained on a paladin quest earlier in his life) [120,630 gp], Ring of Air Command (a gift from his father) [200,000].

Character Wealth by Level for a 10th level PC is 49,000 GP.  This character’s equipment (just the three stated items, without incidentals) is over SEVEN TIMES as much.

Andorax - 30 June 2008 05:47 AM

Aside the 4E portage argument, one thing in particular stuck out to me:

“Now I didn’t actually bend any rules with these characters...”

Celestial Armor [22,400], Holy Avenger (both gained on a paladin quest earlier in his life) [120,630 gp], Ring of Air Command (a gift from his father) [200,000].

Character Wealth by Level for a 10th level PC is 49,000 GP.  This character’s equipment (just the three stated items, without incidentals) is over SEVEN TIMES as much.

He is CLAIMING to have gotten them from previous quests and as gifts, even though that still violates rules for making a higher level character. Here, we’ll compromise, go make a 1st level warlord with items and wealth as a level 25.

Okay, looks like we’ve got a few people here who got the point of what I was getting at.  Good, good.
You have pleased the self-proclaimed god of madness.  You shall live to see another day and remain sane enough to appreciate it.

But seriously . . .

A few quick comments. 
On Math: I summed up quickly rather than list the exact skill rank.  I figured most of us would be able to figure out what I meant.
On equipment: I suppose I didn’t think about it, but I built these as NPCs rather than as PCs and I took into account that they were members of a royal family and thus had abundant wealth and resources.  The equipment I chose was based on what it seemed like they would have.  All in all, they were kind of rough in some areas because I haven’t playtested them as characters yet, but my intent was to use the selection of skills and feats to flesh out the basic style of the characters.
Finally, to those who call this thread pointless: under what pretext?  I suppose if we’re operating under the assumption that one is trying to convince everyone that one better than the other, I suppose that would be pointless.  I found long ago that most people think they can halt the ineffable march of logic with the finger, but I never said this was an effort to convince anyone.  I am interested in neither the answer, nor the question, only the process, but if people don’t approach it like they’re trying to prove a point, all you get is a bunch of meaningless, gooey arguments and constant disclaimers of “in my opinion.” This tired old tripe bores me, so I stoked the fire a bit.
So you can let down your hair and enjoy the contest of ideas.

Anyway
Okay, I’m starting to see how 4E works on the character generation.

Now, Rothe, you say you don’t need feats to define fighting style.  Explain this, please.  If feats do not define a character’s combat style, what does?  I seem to have overlooked something, a not inconceivable occurance.

On the other hand, this also brings up a question.  How important are skills to characters.  What I strongly dislike is that the classes have a small list of skills that they appear to simply have full training in for their level and can gain no others without taking feats.  The way my group plays, skills define the character as much, if not more, than feats, so this change seems to be overly restrictive in character developement.

What I was really going for, however, was more like what Andy has done.  Different people creating their own characters and building the stats onto those ideas.  Andy, if you’ve got that character built, show it.  I’d like to see how well you can make feats and abilities match up to the character.

By the by, Mr. Priest of Asmodeus, why do you say warlord for Prince Lark rather than Paladin?  I chose paladin because I saw him as being religious, as well as a skilled combatant, although not as skilled as his cousin.  Also, the Palidin had a better list of skills suited to the character.  Cleric probably could have worked, but I didn’t view him as actually being a priest.  I see clerics as being called to serve/spread the faith.  Lark himself isn’t interested in preaching or other clerical duties, but more in defending the kingdom.
However, a pacifist warlord sounds interesting and I’d like to see how you’d build that.  That is, after all, what I started this thread for - to test the variability of the character generation system.