4th & Dragon : Dungeons and Dragons...and stuff

This post at ENWorld was posted by user AmbushBug.

Each class feature and mechanical detail is purchased with what, in a fit of genius, I’m calling “character points” or CP. Every character has 18 CP to spend at creation; unspent CP are lost. Every character also starts with the following:

* Proficiency with cloth armor and all simple melee weapons
* 2 points to add to Fort, Ref, and/or Will defenses as desired
* 10 starting HP and +4 per level
* 6 healing surges
* 3 trained skills of their choice

Your 18 character points can be spent on options from the following list. Any unspent points are lost. Note that some options have prerequisites, or exclude you from making other choices. A character may only pick one option each from the Damage, Marking, and Healing categories.

OPTION/COST

* +2.5 starting HP and +1 HP per level: 1 (may select twice; half-points round down)
* 1 additional trained skill: 2 (may select three times)
* Proficient w/all light armor: 1
* Proficient w/all heavy armor: 1 (must be proficient w/all light armor)
* Proficient w/all shields: 1
* Proficient w/military melee weapons: 1
* Proficient w/simple ranged weapons: 1
* Proficient w/military ranged weapons: 1 (must be proficient w/simple ranged weapons)
* Hunter’s Quarry: 5 (Damage)
* Sneak Attack: 5 (Damage)
* Warlock’s Curse: 5 (Damage)
* Combat Challenge: 5 (Marking)
* Divine Challenge: 5 (Marking)
* Healing Word: 5 (Healing)
* Lay On Hands: 2 (Healing)
* Inspiring Word: 5 (Healing)
* Arcane Implement Mastery: 3
* Cantrips: 5
* Channel Divinity: Divine Fortune: 1
* Channel Divinity: Divine Mettle: 1
* Channel Divinity: Divine Strength: 1
* Channel Divinity: Turn Undead: 2
* Combat Leader: 3
* Combat Superiority: 2
* First Strike: 1
* Healer’s Lore: 2
* Prime Shot: 2
* Ritual Casting: 2 (grants the Ritual Casting feat, plus two 1st-level rituals of choice and a ritual book - see also Spellbook)
* Rogue Weapon Talent: 1
* Shadow Walk: 3
* Wizard Training: 1 (you must buy this option in order to use any wizard powers; it serves no other function)
* Spellbook: 5 (Grants bonus daily and utility powers of your choice as described. If character has the Ritual Casting feat, the spellbook also serves as a ritual book. It has one 1st-level ritual of your choice, plus any bonus rituals from the Ritual Casting feature, and gains new rituals as described.)
* Commanding Presence: 2 (only one option may be selected)
* Eldritch Pact: 3 (only one pact may be selected)
* Fighter Weapon Talent: 3 (only one bonus type may be selected)
* Rogue Tactics: 2 (only one option may be selected)
* Ranger Fighting Style: Archer: 1 (only one ranger fighting style may be selected)
* Ranger Fighting Style: Two-Blade: 2 (only one ranger fighting style may be selected)

I wanted to know what you guys thought of this.  Really quickly, I’ve built all the base classes and the numbers add up.  Next I wanted to try to make a TWF Fighter with a better Mark and some dabbling in magic.

I spent--
2 points to get HP to 15 and 6 like the fighter
1 point to get light armor
1 point to get heavy armor
1 point for military melee
1 point for simple ranged
1 point for military ranged
2 points for Ranger Two-Blade style
3 points for Fighter weapon talent 1-handed weapons
5 points for Divine Challenge
1 point for Wizard training

So the class would look like this-

This looks really close.  I have been wanting to do something similar myself but I haven’t had the time.  On a quick scan the Armor (and possibly Weapon) profs and implement mastery seem off.  Also, ritual casting and spellbook are a little clunky as written and I don’t know about wizard training yet.  Maybe I missed it but how do you change your number of healing surges?

Overall, it is a fantastic start, just some minor clarifications/cleanups will be needed (I think).

I think most of those comments were posted on the ENWorld thread.  If they weren’t (the armor proficiencies spring to mind) they are things I thought of.  Fighter doesn’t get plate in the book, but it’s a heavy armor, so that score is off a little.  The numbers need a little tweaking and I don’t like base 18.  I’d have posted over there, but ever since EN2 came out, I get timed out over half the time I’m there.

Plus, someone just pointed out a fairly broken combo using first strike, hunter’s quarry, and sneak attack.

As pointed out in the ENWorld thread, the Sneak attack/Hunter’s quarry ability doesn’t work anymore, since both are “damage” abilities and you can only take one of each.

I am in so in love with the idea of this system that it physically hurts me to point out the flaws in it.  Still, these are problems that immediately jump out at me:

If you are going to make a character (especially a ranger), you should probably save your CPs and skip “Military Melee Weapons” since your just going to spend a feat on bastard swords anyway.

Similarly, Would any spend two points on Simple and Military Ranged Weapons when longbow proficiency is just a feat away?  Does it seem wrong to anyone else that everyone will be proficient with longbows, but not slings?

“Fighter Weapon Talent” seems under-valued to me. What martial character doesn’t want this?

And a question, since I don’t have my books, could a rogue use Shadow Walk to hide and sneak attack?

I wish this was mine to play with, but it’s not.  And I’m not mathematically inclined so it’s not like I can do the math myself.  I just thought this was an interesting take on it.

That said, I keep finding flaws in it now after initially falling for it.  It’s too easy to make broken combos through it.

Hmm. Quite interesting. My own take on it would look similar, probably, but since 4e is still pretty heavily based on leveling-up, my take on it would likely be closer to Mearles’ take in Iron Heroes. All of the classes seem to have a similar number of “starting class features”, and I think it’s a matter of “packaging” them so that the better your base benefits are (healing surges, hit points per level, weapon proficiencies, armor proficiencies), the less you have to choose from with your “other” abilities (Sneak Attack, Hunter’s Quarry, etc.). So a “good” base benefits package would probably only allow you to choose “fewer” of those benefits (maybe arrange them so really big powers like Sneak Attack or Hunter’s Quarry are all in the same group, and you can only select one selection from that group).

From there, each of these abilities which you select would provide you a bonus to both a Power Source rank (Arcane, Divine, Martial, at this point) and a Role rank (Controller, Defender, Leader, Striker). Other powers you picked would provide a further bonus to a power source and a role. Subsequent powers would have a prerequisite rank for different Power Source / Role ranks, and would themselves provide bonuses to the different role / source ranks. This would play out more like a “tree”, and eventually, even a relatively focused character would develop fair ranks in other roles and power sources, and with retraining rules, could trade-out for those lower-level powers with no “penalty”.

I’ll have to sit down and play with this.

(That’s who I was hoping might drop in...)

Cameron, you sly dog…

Yeah like JK i think it miss soem stuff. You should have to select a base Power Source(PS) and a Role, and from that take options in a list, maybe also be able to spend points to select more PS and/or Roles to give more option but at the cost of having less point to spend on actual class feature.

For exemple the HP/Healing surge determine by the role. Power choice in the list of your power source.

For exemple i choose Martial power source and Defender role, i would have 15 base hp +6/lev and 9 surge. I can select any power from any martial power source class. So for exemple i could take a at-will from rogue and one from fighter, take the lev 1 encounter of the warlord and a daily of the ranger.

I dont know if it make sense but i think i would go with something like that. Now the cost for additional power source or role i have no idea. And i wouldnt allow someone to take out both hunter quarry and sneak attack or the combat challenge and the divine challenge.

While not explicitly stated, HP is tied to a character’s role.  Number of healing surges appears to start out based on role, but is adjusted on a class by class basis according to the requirements of the class.  Paladins, for instance, get more healing surges than fighters primarily because they have an ability that requires them to spend their own healing surges to use (lay on hands).

This looks like a terrific starting point.  A little stres-testing for busted combos can only be a good thing

Has potential.

HP and HS per role seem to be :

Defender 15/6 per lev, 9 HS (pally got 1 extra but prolly due to class spec)
Striker/leader 12/5 per lev, 6 HS
Controler 10/4 per lev, 6 HS